Shooting at VA Tech

[Kizyr]

Maybe it's just me, but perhapes we SHOULD listen. It's probably because we didn't listen in the first place that drove him to this extreme.

No; the video was a bunch of incomprehensible stuff about how everyone else is all spoiled and rich. There was no message, and there wasn't anything to listen to. KF

[Grey Fox]

Now we're gonna have to listen to jack tompson bash video games for the next month or two.

Well... we were going to have to do that anyway, in all fairness to Jack. Now he's just going to be louder and on more networks.

He's also going to make less sense like always. I read also that Dr. Phil has also begun to jump on the "-Fatal Hopper- Video Games" bandwagon after this, even though there was at no point anywhere announced the kid played any sort of violent game. He watched a couple of violent movies though (a la "Oldboy" by the pose he made with the hammer). Then again, violent media I don't think has anything to do with it.

Reading his plays that he wrote, it has much to do with family, and the fact that he felt very alone in the world. Of course, most of us would look at that and say "boo hoo sob sob, grow up." That's only because we know how harsh the world is, but this kid was screwed up enough to think that the perfect world was one he was going to craft. Look at his victims, the ones that he knew he was killing, all of them are attractive people who look like they come from very well to do families. In his mind, they were snobs, his family was poor and came from a country under constant turmoil. He felt they looked down upon him and by their attempts to "befriend" (more like appease) he simply had a much bigger hatred of them.

In the end, it was a poor upbringing and possibly poor parenting along with an already unstable persona. Combine that with half-assed attempts on the students and staff to tell the warning signs of manic depression and psychopathic behavior, and you've got yourself a lone gunman.

PS, the fact that CNN news called the kid a 'loner' about 20 times makes me hate the news even more.

[JWL]

It seems to be pretty clear that this man had something physically wrong with his brain, but I would also say that he had something wrong with his soul. I don't think it's possible for human beings to commit such horrendous acts on their own and apparently have absolutely no remorse. If you ask me, his mind was warped into coming up the idea that everyone else was some kind of "snob" who deserved death.

May all the victims rest in peace.

[Grey Fox]

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-enterta ... 253797.php

Here's further proof that Jack Thompson is insane.

[Kizyr]

In the end, it was a poor upbringing and possibly poor parenting along with an already unstable persona. Combine that with half-assed attempts on the students and staff to tell the warning signs of manic depression and psychopathic behavior, and you've got yourself a lone gunman.

You make a lot of assumptions here. Honestly, in what position are you to assume that the staff missed signs of "manic-depression and psychopathic behavior"? It's very easy to lay the blame for missing warning signs after-the-fact--it's also very easy to 'profile' a killer when he's already killed 30 people. (It's also easy to point fingers, but that's another thing.)

Given everything, every bit of evidence, it still seems that the staff did what they could, given the information available. All the "warning signs" that they had available were that he was depressed and antisocial, and needed counseling (which they offered), not that he was a killer.

The only thing that would've pointed to him being a killer would be the amount of firearms and ammunition he was collecting. There hasn't been a lot released regarding that yet.

Here's further proof that Jack Thompson is insane.

...what I don't get is that people still give him a forum in which to speak.

Dr. Phil is also a moron. But if I get started on my issues with him, it'll get tangential to the topic.

It seems to be pretty clear that this man had something physically wrong with his brain, but I would also say that he had something wrong with his soul. I don't think it's possible for human beings to commit such horrendous acts on their own and apparently have absolutely no remorse. If you ask me, his mind was warped into coming up the idea that everyone else was some kind of "snob" who deserved death.

Yes, clearly... I don't think I could've put it better. KF

[GhaleonOne]

Here's further proof that Jack Thompson is insane.

What I don't understand is why the gaming community continues to post news about him. Ignore him. He won't go away I'm sure, but he'll have less of an audience to preach to. It's the same thing over and over. Jack Thompson blames the next bad thing on video games. Then the gaming community gets into an uproar. Then it escalates, and he gets more prominence. Just ignore the guy.

Edit - Damnit, Kiz beat me to it.

[phyco126]

Maybe it's just me, but perhapes we SHOULD listen. It's probably because we didn't listen in the first place that drove him to this extreme.

No; the video was a bunch of incomprehensible stuff about how everyone else is all spoiled and rich. There was no message, and there wasn't anything to listen to. KF

A lot of it is incompreshensible, sure, but I still understood some of the things he was talking about.

[Grey Fox]

In the end, it was a poor upbringing and possibly poor parenting along with an already unstable persona. Combine that with half-assed attempts on the students and staff to tell the warning signs of manic depression and psychopathic behavior, and you've got yourself a lone gunman.

You make a lot of assumptions here. Honestly, in what position are you to assume that the staff missed signs of "manic-depression and psychopathic behavior"? It's very easy to lay the blame for missing warning signs after-the-fact--it's also very easy to 'profile' a killer when he's already killed 30 people. (It's also easy to point fingers, but that's another thing.)

Given everything, every bit of evidence, it still seems that the staff did what they could, given the information available. All the "warning signs" that they had available were that he was depressed and antisocial, and needed counseling (which they offered), not that he was a killer.

The only thing that would've pointed to him being a killer would be the amount of firearms and ammunition he was collecting. There hasn't been a lot released regarding that yet.

Manipulation of the truth, the ability to directly lie to another human being, the ability to be steady under something so telling as a lie detector is how. Granted, most psychologists don't pick up on these sorts of things, but in a news post I'd read said he did go and talk to a professional psychiatrist. If this is true or not, of course, is based off of what I read. I do however know that many psychiatrists can pick up on certain behaviors, because they themselves are just as screwed up. Of course it could just be the two that I know.

I'm also simply basing my assumptions off of what I've read and what I know of people who are disturbed. I spent a bit hanging around people of the same MO, and while they've not killed anyone, they've been on that verge and tossed into prison/institutions.

[ilovemyguitar]

Maybe it's just me, but perhapes we SHOULD listen. It's probably because we didn't listen in the first place that drove him to this extreme.

No; the video was a bunch of incomprehensible stuff about how everyone else is all spoiled and rich. There was no message, and there wasn't anything to listen to. KF

A lot of it is incompreshensible, sure, but I still understood some of the things he was talking about.

You seem to be skirting dangerously close to blaming the victims...

[phyco126]

Maybe it's just me, but perhapes we SHOULD listen. It's probably because we didn't listen in the first place that drove him to this extreme.

No; the video was a bunch of incomprehensible stuff about how everyone else is all spoiled and rich. There was no message, and there wasn't anything to listen to. KF

A lot of it is incompreshensible, sure, but I still understood some of the things he was talking about.

You seem to be skirting dangerously close to blaming the victims...

To blame the victims would be wrong, unless they did something to trigger the guy, which at this point doesn't seem to really be the case. What I will willingly admit to blame is society. Society just doesn't seem to ever get it.

[RPGMan]

In the end, it was a poor upbringing and possibly poor parenting along with an already unstable persona. Combine that with half-assed attempts on the students and staff to tell the warning signs of manic depression and psychopathic behavior, and you've got yourself a lone gunman.

You make a lot of assumptions here. Honestly, in what position are you to assume that the staff missed signs of "manic-depression and psychopathic behavior"? It's very easy to lay the blame for missing warning signs after-the-fact--it's also very easy to 'profile' a killer when he's already killed 30 people. (It's also easy to point fingers, but that's another thing.)

Given everything, every bit of evidence, it still seems that the staff did what they could, given the information available. All the "warning signs" that they had available were that he was depressed and antisocial, and needed counseling (which they offered), not that he was a killer.

The only thing that would've pointed to him being a killer would be the amount of firearms and ammunition he was collecting. There hasn't been a lot released regarding that yet.

Manipulation of the truth, the ability to directly lie to another human being, the ability to be steady under something so telling as a lie detector is how. Granted, most psychologists don't pick up on these sorts of things, but in a news post I'd read said he did go and talk to a professional psychiatrist. If this is true or not, of course, is based off of what I read. I do however know that many psychiatrists can pick up on certain behaviors, because they themselves are just as screwed up. Of course it could just be the two that I know.

I'm also simply basing my assumptions off of what I've read and what I know of people who are disturbed. I spent a bit hanging around people of the same MO, and while they've not killed anyone, they've been on that verge and tossed into prison/institutions.

If you have no alagorical sense to what is going on and have not experienced the things the 'psychatree' has gone through, how do you know where they aere coming from? I mean, if you have not been through turmoil you have not been blessed i think it is. (edgar allen poe) I for one would be clinically insane if I were to go to a doctors and tell them about the things that go on in my head. But I am nt stupid, malicious or debauched enough to act them out. Willpower is the word here. I am around drug addicts and drunks etc all the time. I haven't touched any of it. I have had a very, and I mean very bad upbrigning and I am one of the most morallic and selfless people you can ever meet in your entire life. This is where I piggy JWL. It was something to do with his core, his soul. It doesnt matter the upbringing, if you have an evil mind, a malicious soul, nothing good will come of it. Oh, don't get me started on the sheep of society.... Yes though, it would have been a good idea to listen to him. As you can see, the plays were a manifestation of the emotions he felt, and was crying out for help. right there is a tell-tale sign that he NEEDS help. Also, some people can notice if somone has the potentiall per-sey to be a killer. Psychyatrists should. And I think gun componies etc should look at the amount of firearms purchased by people. If these among other signs were ascertained earlier this might have been prevented. And the whole closing campus thing. He was not found for 2 hours.. He could have still been in the dorm or the school in that time. Meaning, he could still have killed just as much people if there was a lockdown. If we evacuated the school he could have shot them while they left. I don't know. I think this whole thing is inevitable. If he did not do it, I bet you anything someone else would have.

[ilovemyguitar]

Maybe it's just me, but perhapes we SHOULD listen. It's probably because we didn't listen in the first place that drove him to this extreme.

No; the video was a bunch of incomprehensible stuff about how everyone else is all spoiled and rich. There was no message, and there wasn't anything to listen to. KF

A lot of it is incompreshensible, sure, but I still understood some of the things he was talking about.

You seem to be skirting dangerously close to blaming the victims...

To blame the victims would be wrong, unless they did something to trigger the guy, which at this point doesn't seem to really be the case. What I will willingly admit to blame is society. Society just doesn't seem to ever get it.

Nothing the victims could have done would have warranted this sort of action. Nothing. There is absolutely no way the victims could be blamed for an act of violence of this magnitude, no matter how they treated this person beforehand.

[RPGMan]

I would agree and disagree. I mean, yeah people do not govern anothers actions, but they di have an affect on the mental stability of others. If you contsantly make fun of people (I mean people in school, like a lot of people to one person) and that person is emotionally unstable, they will snap. While they 'didn't' do it, but they sure the hell jumped it along. I do not think those people might have had naything to do with it, but people and possible victims can have something to do with it.

[phyco126]

I honestly don't think the victims did anything to warrant what he did, from the reports I've read it seems he was teased in high school, but I haven't heard of anything of the sort in college. As a matter of fact, thus far I have only seen that fellow students and professors have tried to help the guy.

Still though, my feelings aren't too far from me walking on egg shells. Society is still to blame for all of this. The retards that teased this poor guy, the people who pushed him over the edge, the people who rejected him rather than help him, they are to blame. These same people turn around and place the blame on the shooter. The real blame is them, they pushed him over the edge, they should be held accountable in some fashion.

What about Columbine? So many people picked on the two kids, and when the kids snapped and shot the whole damned place up, everyone was like "OMG!! Gun control, sue the parents, our poor babies are victims, sue the sheriff, sue the city, sue the school, sue the president, blame the shooters, sue video game companies, shut down video game companies, waaaaaa, waaaaaa, waaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!" If anything they should have sued their own -Fatal Hopper- kids.

Events like this is sad, very sad, and I mourn for the victims, people I don't even know I mourn for. But I'll be damned if I'm not going to mourn the shooter too, because he was a victim too of another very evil crime.

People just don't know what it's like, they just go around calling psycopath and crap. I can guarantee you if some of you walked in some of these people's shoes and felt what they felt in their soul, you would finally understand.

[GhaleonOne]

What about Columbine? So many people picked on the two kids, and when the kids snapped and shot the whole damned place up, everyone was like "OMG!! Gun control, sue the parents, our poor babies are victims, sue the sheriff, sue the city, sue the school, sue the president, blame the shooters, sue video game companies, shut down video game companies, waaaaaa, waaaaaa, waaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!" If anything they should have sued their own -Fatal Hopper- kids.

You're walking a REALLY fine line here. And I'm dead serious. I've personally met the father of one of the girls who was shot and killed at Columbine, and you're coming dangerously close to blaming the kids who were shot. There is NO excuse for someone shooting up a bunch of people because they were teased and bullied. I'm so sick and tired of people blaming all of their problems on what's around them, when 9 times out of 10, they have all the ability in the world to make the changes themselves.

[Angelalex242]

Actually...I think it's more of a vicious cycle the wackos perpetrate upon themselves.

Not knowing how to be normal people, they try to get the things that normal people have, but go about it wrongly. Naturally, this wins no friends and influences no people, and will incur the displeasure of the normal people around them.

The normal people express their displeasure, which the maniac determines is unjust, so he either tries to reach out more or acts out more. Either way, because people tend to have an inherent sense of who they shouldn't waste their time on, the wacko's efforts will naturally backfire.

Over time, the wacko decides the only thing left to do is shoot everyone and himself. And yet, the situation he found himself was nobody's fault but his own.

The only thing I wonder is if the insanity of the shooter was self caused or a chemical imbalance in his brain. I do not believe the coroner's office has determined that yet.

[phyco126]

...when 9 times out of 10, they have all the ability in the world to make the changes themselves.

Well they did a fine job making changes, 15 dead at a school really pushed changes forward didn't it?

Seriously G1, how the hell does one go about making changes when it comes to people teasing them? Conforming to their standards? Changing schools? Telling teachers? BS on all of it. To conform takes away from who you are and turns you into something you shouldn't be. Changing schools will likely just get you teased at the new school, possibly even more because you are new. Telling teachers does -Dragon Diamond-, they say they'll take care of it, but they never do, and if anything it makes things worse. What about beating the living -Dragon Diamond- out of the people who teased them? Hey, I'm all for that over shooting up the whole school, but where would that get you? Expelled, the teasing would continue, and suddenly the people who got beat up are the poor wittle babies that need to be hugged and kissed to make their boo boos all better.

Yes it's a terrible shame innocent people died, no innocent person should ever be hurt in ANY way. Whether through being hurt by an accident, on purpose, through being teased, emotionally abused, physically hurt/abused, starved, sick... doesn't matter, innocents are innocent and should be protected and safe.

But until people get their heads out of their asses and start looking at the true underlying problems that cause people to go over the edge, then a lot more innocent people are going to get hurt and die.

There is no denying that most people are born with some sort of innate hatred and evil in their hearts and souls. Some more than others, some completely evil with no help of salvation. However, most people battle the hatred in their souls, but people around them only feed that hatred and anger until they are pushed past the breaking point, the point of which there is no return and the only end is the death of innocent people and usually the death of the person that was pushed over the edge.

[Angelalex242]

I disagree, Phyco.

You see, many people suffer terribly in school. Myself among them. I didn't have any more friends the local wacko did.

I never shot anybody, and neither do most people who suffer in school.

No, there has to be something terribly wrong in the man's head for him to cross that line.

[phyco126]

Of course, I never said there wasn't, I even said there was. Everyone has innate hatred, anger, and evil in their hearts, some more than others. But most who are pushed over the edge are pushed because of those around them who treat them like -Dragon Diamond-.

[Werefrog]

Hello everyone. I don't want to get too far into this discussion. However, I'd like to suggest some reading in case anyone is interested in seeing a complex view of school shootings. As an elective, I'm taking education class this semester. We read a chapter from <a href=http://www.amazon.com/Rampage-Social-Ro ... 340&sr=8-1> this book</a> a week or so ago.

Basically, an education professor went into one a school to examine the events that caused such a tragedy. She also covered a couple of other schools.

What she was found were situations that were indeed similar to what Phyco brought. However in her analysis (I know you weren't blaming the victim either, Phyco), it's not the victim that should be blamed, but the system itself.

Here is a quick summary of what she found:
1) There was a strict hierarchy that often excluded the shooters despite their attempts to fit into the system.
2) There was a sense that they could never escape who they were in high school (this theme is also seen in Bowling for Columbine if any of you have seen that).
3) They were indeed mentally ill.
4) Their masculinity was challenged. They were often called gay.

Her theory was that these students were pushed in a corner-- not by the victims-- but by the system itself. The truth is that it's easy to just say that it's video games or that he was crazy. I have no doubt that he had a form of mental illness. However, it's important to realize that mental illness is not cut off from every other aspect of someone's life. Various environmental factors can either help someone, or it can hurt someone. Remember, one of the first rules of psychology is that causality is almost always multi-faceted.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I would never blame them. However, rather than just saying that he was a loner and anti-social like the media have, we need to help improve the societal factors that helped to create this tragedy.

I went way deeper into this than I wished to. I hope you find my comments insightful. I'll apologize in advance if I don't get back to your points. I have a bit of homework this weekend and (no offense) would rather play the new Sam and Max game in my free time than debate this.

--Edit: I think this was expressed in the rest of my post, but I do not in any way condone this man's actions. However, I think we do need to understand his motivation in order to prevent these things in the future.