Blue Spire and Star Dragon Tower

[DevNall]

Why were there two towers rather than just one?

[Angelalex242]

My theory is redundancy. If Zophar had destroyed the Blue Spire, or had Leo do it with the Destiny, Lucia would've arrived on Lunar at the Star Dragon's tower.

Better safe then sorry.

[DevNall]

My theory is redundancy. If Zophar had destroyed the Blue Spire, or had Leo do it with the Destiny, Lucia would've arrived on Lunar at the Star Dragon's tower.

Couldn't he just as easily have taken out both, then?

[Angelalex242]

No, because the Star Dragon is formiddable enough that Ghaleon didn't even TRY to take his Dragon Aura. The Star Dragon Tower is much better defended.

[DevNall]

No, because the Star Dragon is formiddable enough that Ghaleon didn't even TRY to take his Dragon Aura. The Star Dragon Tower is much better defended.

So why not just have Lucia come that way first? (And I get the impression the Star Dragon's aura wasn't really necessary for Zophar's task...)

[GhaleonOne]

No, because the Star Dragon is formiddable enough that Ghaleon didn't even TRY to take his Dragon Aura. The Star Dragon Tower is much better defended.

It's not even a fact that the Star Dragon even had a Dragon Aura, being a different kind of dragon.

My own opinion on this is that much of the secrest of the Star Dragon Tower and Blue Spire are still a mystery. Lucia obviously came via the Blue Spire, which I believe was mentioned to be the Blue Star's counterpart on Lunar. The Star Dragon Tower seemed to be where people would one day transport back to the Blue Star. Which was guarded by the Star Dragon.

Ghaleon obviously knew of the Blue Spire's powers, as he said something to Lucia in EB:

<img src="http://www.lunar-net.com/eb/screens/3/images/LUNAR%20%20ETERNAL%20BLUE_525.jpg">

He knew of it's powers that it could revive Hiro. This specific comment really makes me wonder if Ghaleon had another plan alltogether through much of the game. I always theorized that perhaps he had planned to use the Blue Spire's powers to revive himself fully, so that he was no longer confined to Zophar's will. Had he done that, he could have fought against Zophar himself. Whether that would have made the slightest bit of difference or not, I'm not sure. Just a theory though, and one that goes out the window with EB, considering Hiro wasn't crystalized. I did also notice that Ghaleon said this:

<img src="http://www.lunar-net.com/eb/screens/3/images/LUNAR%20%20ETERNAL%20BLUE_519.jpg">

He actually killed Hiro when he crystalized him. However, the Blue Spire's power was able to bring him back. Which also makes me think there may be something to that crystal in the Blue Spire on the Blue Star, and the theory that it was keeping Lucia immortal. Something that Hiro probably could have entered and been kept immortal as well. Just theories though.

[WD RPG WD]

That would have made a cool story for EB if Ghaleon fought and killed Zophar and then proceeed to take over the world again.

Also I really hope if Lunar 3 comes out that the story will be about the people of Luarn returning to the Blue Star.

[drumlord]

No, because the Star Dragon is formiddable enough that Ghaleon didn't even TRY to take his Dragon Aura. The Star Dragon Tower is much better defended.

What Mickey said. But also, it is possible there are things that Ghaleon/Zophar/OtherBaddies simply did not know about. Or that Ghaleon didn't know how to access the Star Dragon Tower when going after the dragons.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Zophar doesn't need a Crystal to continue his immortal existence...after getting banished once and smacked down once. Althena doesn't need a crystal either. Why would Lucia depend on it for immortality? I don't think sleeping...hibernating, even...has much to do with immortality. She was waiting for enough power to be collected...and that took a while. And there was nothing else to do on the Blue Star, so hibernating seems logical.

I dunno if Ghaleon fully revived could've taken Zophar. He didn't have Althena's power...but then, he didn't need it to manipulate Althena herself. Ghaleon vs. Zophar one on one would've been a fun anime scene to watch.

That Lucia can ressurrect with the powers of her Spire (and without the power of Althena) is right there. It seems probable, then, that Althena can also raise the dead, if Lucia and Zophar can also manage it. If Lucia had claimed Althena's power first, she may well have been able to sub it for the Blue Spire anyway. Lucia seems to like using objects and drawing power out of them to do things, though. The Black Dragon Aura to land Neo Vane, Althena's Aura to fix Raculi and send Ronfar into Mauri's head...and the Spire to fix Hiro...and eventually claiming Althena's Power in total to take Zophar on. Her personal Divine Power seems to be at the stage of her existence we see her in, 'using everyone else's stuff'. She probably could pull some neat tricks with the power in Althena's Sword if Nall had given it to her. Of course, what the effects of her doing that might've been on the weapon, we don't know.

Ya know...the power that was being collected to revive the Blue Star. I wonder if that was actually building Lucia's divine strength. Claiming her own Divine Power (as opposed to Althena's) to do it.

There's a thought. What if the Crystal was a solid form of Lucia's Divine Power (again, as opposed to Althena's), And she was simply waiting for the Silver Star to finish forming it. Hiro couldn't enter the crystal because it's not his power, nor is it meant for him. Also, Hiro sorta needs to breathe, and there's no evidence the crystal isn't airtight as most crystals are.

...The Star Dragon draws his power from 'the Tapestry of the universe'. ...is the whole Universe, then, his 'Aura', assuming he has one? Or is drawing on the universe why he doesn't need one?

[Kizyr]

Well, Zophar doesn't need a Crystal to continue his immortal existence...after getting banished once and smacked down once. Althena doesn't need a crystal either. Why would Lucia depend on it for immortality? I don't think sleeping...hibernating, even...has much to do with immortality. She was waiting for enough power to be collected...and that took a while. And there was nothing else to do on the Blue Star, so hibernating seems logical.

Both Althena and Zophar were 'active'--Althena, while she was still intervening in human affairs (pre-Luna), and Zophar, while he was trying to get back to Lunar or break the seal over him. Lucia was just waiting. Besides which, there's every indication that Lucia is a much weaker deity (in most all ancient, polytheistic belief systems, some gods are weaker than others).

I don't see Lucia depending on the crystal for immortality, but depending on it for hibernation. Otherwise, she'd just be there unprotected the entire time.

...The Star Dragon draws his power from 'the Tapestry of the universe'. ...is the whole Universe, then, his 'Aura', assuming he has one? Or is drawing on the universe why he doesn't need one?

The 'tapestry of the universe' can be strong or weak. It could be weak in the sense that it's drawing on nothingness, or ether if you want to go by Greco-Roman chemistry. So, that could go either way. KF

[GhaleonOne]

The question of the Star Dragon can't be answered. There simply isn't enough information to do so. I think you make a good theory though, that he likely doesn't have or need an aura because he can draw power from the universe.

That Lucia can ressurrect with the powers of her Spire (and without the power of Althena) is right there. It seems probable, then, that Althena can also raise the dead, if Lucia and Zophar can also manage it. If Lucia had claimed Althena's power first, she may well have been able to sub it for the Blue Spire anyway. Lucia seems to like using objects and drawing power out of them to do things, though. The Black Dragon Aura to land Neo Vane, Althena's Aura to fix Raculi and send Ronfar into Mauri's head...and the Spire to fix Hiro...and eventually claiming Althena's Power in total to take Zophar on.

A lot of this has nothing to do with any divine powers of Lucia though. The ressurection of Hiro was due to the Blue Spire's powers, not Lucia's. She simply understood how to use it. In fact, given the information of how to use it, Ghaleon himself seemed to think he had the ability to wield it. The same goes for grounding Neo-Vane. Borgan was using the power of the Black Dragon to keep it suspended in the air. I don't see how shielding it from grounding seemed to indicate any divine powers on Lucia's part. She, like Borgan, simply understood how to use the Black Dragon's power. Althena's Aura... I'd be willing to bet that like the other two powers, if a person understood the mechanics of it, they could use it. Claiming Althena's Power, again, Ghaleon did that in Lunar 1 by manipulating Luna. Whether he was controlling Althena's Power or controlling Althena herself, some kind of divine power of controlling Althena's power seems kinda useless when a human/Mazoku/whatever the hell Ghaleon actually is, can simply outsmart a Goddess. Putting Ronfar into Mauri's head was about the only thing I can see Lucia doing that someone else can't accomplish.

Don't get me wrong, I love Lucia. I'm perhaps her second biggest fan on this board. (next to you obviously ) I think she one of the finer characters in the series. I just don't think everything can be attributed to some important divine powers she has. She's no less limited than Althena is with her powers, and on top of that, she never seemed to be as powerful as Althena was prior to the curse of Zophar. In fact, they never did quite explain whether she fully recovered from it. Ronfar cured the curse to the extent of leaving her alive, but said she wouldn't be fully healed until she met with Althena. And the fact that Zophar could curse her that easily, when he apparently couldn't do the same to Althena millenia before on the Blue Star says something of her powers possibly not being equal to Althena's. The problem is, we don't know how immortal she is. It's not a proven fact that the crystal isn't keeping her alive. Though, I don't think the crystal is causing her immortality personally. I'd like to think she was as immortal as Althena, but it's hard to say, since Althena existed both as a Goddess, and then reborn as a human throughout history. There's just too many unanswered questions that aren't explained that mean most of the arguments and debates we're having over this stuff lately cannot be proven 100%. Most of it is speculation and theory, and can't be solidified without more information. Only a general idea of how things work are given.

[Angelalex242]

I think I just hit on something.

Althena was stronger then Lucia BECAUSE she was frequently reborn as a human. Both games make the point the power of humanity is the greatest power out there.

By reincarnating, Althena claims THAT a little more fully each time, till she embraces it entirely as Luna. Althena, even before she truly realizes what humanity means, is naturally embracing it.

Lucia is never reincarnated as a human, so humanity's power is beyond her...kinda like she says when she goes back the to the Blue Star. She's goddess mode full time. Throughout the millenia, she had no human contact, where Althena had a lot of it. Humanity itself may have strengthend Althena just by praying to her.

By this logic, if a religion to Lucia did start up (And in Raculi, a couple people are already calling her a goddess, and one even thinks she's stronger then Althena), she would become stronger with every prayer she got. Likewise, post game Lucia is stronger then pre game Lucia, because humanity has touched her where it never had before.

As for Zophar...well, like most evil guys, Zophar has a lot of ability to destroy things, but not much ability to do much else. The fact Zophar can raise the dead is unusual for a bad guy.

[Dark_Fairy]

This just proves I need to get a copy of EB...but anyways interesting theories.

I had my owns thoughs about Lucia. I think she was a human living on the Blue Star but was someone importaint (warrior or royality maybe since she is called "Princess of the Blue Star") so Althena perhaps gave some of her power to Lucia to protect the Blue Star until it was fully revived.

[Silver Phoenix]

Lucia is the guardian of the Blue Star, she is not considered a goddess. Zophar even in his weakened state was able to afflict her, and had she been a goddess I doubt she would have been so crippled. Once Lucia obtained the power of Althena, her affliction was lifted. Zophar was able to enslave her, because of her moment of weakness while protecting the others.

It's entirely possible that Lucia's mission included becoming a goddess once she obtained Althena's power, but it didn't work out in that respect. This is why a post Eternal Blue sequel could elaborate on so much more of the story behind Lucia, and the pre-Lunar Althena.

[Kizyr]

I still figure Lucia is a goddess. The wording in the prologue to the first EB novel pretty well establishes that idea. She's obviously not a very powerful one, but within the entire Lunar cosmology there's nothing to disprove that she is one. KF

[Alunissage]

There are two towers because it would have been silly to put an end boss for Hiro in the Blue Spire and sillier to have it be the last dungeon.

It's a GAME. A great many design decisions will reflect that.

I don't mean my first two lines to indicate that I don't think the original question is worth discussing, nor do I mean to say that topic changes within a thread are bad, because I don't think either of these things. I'm just bloody sick of both overstating the relevance of game design elements to story/characterization (which I don't really think the original poster is doing so much; I was just reminded of it) and everything turning into a funnel back to the same old Lucia-centric goddess/power idée fixe. It's getting so that seeing new posts in the Lunar-specific boards, which used to be what I looked forward to the most, just make me tired and resigned...here we go again. It just isn't fun any more. I have never felt so unenthusiastic, at a time when I should be eagerly anticipating new material to ponder in DS's release. I know part of it's that I'm under massive stress at work and just got another huge project dropped on my head today which resulted in getting home at 11pm yet again. I probably wouldn't have written all this if I weren't so exhausted. Actually, I just deleted a much longer paragraph that elaborated on the second sentence of the above, since when I'm actually awake I might think better of posting it. My disaffection with trying to pin down (or fabricate) elements the designers thought best to leave vague thus far and force them into support for a single preconceived idea is not related to being tired, though. Speculation and discussion is (usually) fun, but it's starting to feel like being strapped into a Vogon poetry appreciation chair.

[Angelalex242]

So far, Alunissage, you're the only one complaining. And actually, you can blame G1 for this one. His screenshots got me started on my favorite topic again.

Now, where was I?

Ah. Yes.

She couldn't have been human. Else she would've been able to access the power of humanity much more readily then she did. The power of humanity flows through humans naturally. Also, why would she refer to 'the humans' and 'you humans' and other such phrases that suggests humans and she are different entities. And she tells the Dragons this too. "Don't talk like that in front of the humans!" she yells at the Blue Dragon. Who just sort of bows and nods at her. I don't think a random human would be able to authoritatively tell Dragons what to do. Also, when she called the power of the Dragons (at least as well if not better then a Dragonmaster would), Ruby's all like surprised at what happens to her...she gets magically flung up into the air and goes full size. It almost seems as though Ruby didn't quite have a choice as to whether or not she was going to attack Pentagulia.

Was the power of Althena among those tools used to revive the Blue Star, given that same power nuked it in the first place? Lucia has her own power building, of course, in that crystal, but then again, the Star Dragon claims the Blue Star isn't going to wake up for many years. And many years to an immortal creature is many many years indeed. Lucia has two possible places to get that power boost, and she might need both of 'em. First, Althena's power is uniquely suited for terraforming. Taking that home would speed things up tremendously. Secondly, the Blue and Black Dragons confirm in the epilogue that the power of humanity, the power of love, is in fact useful for revival, so Hiro's presence there also accelerates the process.

The Black Dragon confirms that when humanity is ready to go back to the Blue Star, the Dragons are going back to it too. Presumably leaving Lunar the world it was before Althena got there in the first place.

[drumlord]

So far, Alunissage, you're the only one complaining. And actually, you can blame G1 for this one. His screenshots got me started on my favorite topic again.

I'm not complaining, but I think it happens far too often. Every Lunar threads turn into Lucia stuff. If they naturally go there, that's fine. But my main qualm is with statements like this one: "Lucia has her own power building, of course, in that crystal." In many of your lengthy theories, you use statements like those to reinforce other statements. But that's just a strawman argument. You build hierarchies of strawman arguments, everything based on previous assumptions.

What I mean is this. It's ok to speculate, but it only makes sense and seems remotely valid to a single level of depth in the speculation hierarchy. So let's say we all speculate about the crystal and decide that it in fact does store power for terraforming the Blue Star (and for the record, I don't think anybody agreed with that). That's the first level of speculation and IMO, that's perfectly fine. But you then take it to the next level and say that that must mean that the towers on Lunar are designed to transmit power. And you take it further and further. But each argument is traced back to the original arguments. The same goes for the Star Dragon and other things. You assume that the Star Dragon is Lucia's dragon and go from there. He's Lucia's dragon and Lucia only has one dragon, so he must be stronger than the others. Etc. etc.

Basically, the deeper you go, it might seem like you are tying things together, but what you're tying together are speculations and hypotheses. And this is great for role playing or fanfic writing, but in regular discussion, going further than a single level of speculation can seem a bit silly at times and is misleading to those who are trying to base their statements purely on facts from the game.

And that's my [somewhat weaksauce] hierarchy analogy.

[Angelalex242]

Actually, I dropped the Star Dragon being Lucia's.

My Blue and Black Dragon research in the Chronicles of Nall thread explain why.

Also, what sends power to the Blue Star varies by game.

It is text supported the Blue Spire does it in EB...Lucia says so when Hiro Crystalized.

It is likewise supported the Fortress of Althena does it in EBC, as Lucia explains it all as the party passes the storage point on their way into Pentagulia after the Dragon assault.

[drumlord]

Those were meant to be examples based on the types of things you were saying. I'm going to pretend you still got my point though and are just being nitpicky.