dragonmaster for a bad guy

[Alunissage]

No one's arguing that Dyne wasn't a dragonmaster when he went to confine the Dragon. That's unambiguous. The question is whether Luna was born before or after this. Oh, and Ghaleon was the only one who accompanied him, not Mel or Lemia. Ghaleon was certainly powerful enough to take care of himself.

Laike has MP in TSS and uses skills like Kyle's (and gains a new one when you level him up from his starting level 95 to 96). But yes, there's a big point that he lost all his actual magic in sealing the dragon. Again, the game was making a point in an illogical way, as Rich commented about Althena's powers. Oh, and since in TSS there's no "epilogue" or anything beyond the final step so we don't see Alex and Luna's MP; however, one of the ending stills behind the credits suggests that Alex is still the dragonmaster afterward. There's a concept drawing for the original timeframe of Lunar 2 in the I+II artbook of Alex as an older Dragonmaster, too.

I'm pretty sure Luna is talking to Alex before he steps forward and his armor starts to fade. Luna, not Althena.

Rich: Will get back to your comment. I basically agree with about all of it but have felt constrained to go with the games' storylines even though I don't like them much.

[phyco126]

Well, I've always felt that Althena was a complete god, not someone with a more refined role, such as Lucia or Zophar. Therefore, her powers where unlimited in what she could do (after all, she did banish the Vile Tribe when they warred with the other people of Lunar.) Though in SSSC, didn't someone mention what her title was? Like Goddess of love and health (or something.) I can't remember, probably not.

Alunissage, yeah, it has to be Luna, not Althena talking to Alex.

One thing though, is I don't think that Luna wanted to go into a Goddess anymore. She did say the reason she did what she did was because she wanted humans and beastmen to be dependent on themselves, not her. Also, her love for Alex (and the others no doubt) had to take a toll too. Remember, Nall mentions the pain of having to watch his loved ones go old and die. I'm sure that Luna wouldn't have wanted that. (Think Bi-centry Ban, or whatever that movie was called, with Robin Williams.) He had to go through all that pain to watch people he ended up loving die. In the end, he wanted to be human, and die like a human, which he did.

[Angelalex242]

That seems to have been edited out in SSSC, however.

Alex, in the 'epilogue' talks to some guy who says 'Hail, Dragonmaster Alex'. Alex looks kinda bummed when he replies to the guy and says, "I'm not Dragonmaster anymore. I'm just Alex. Again." Though, in theory, having him remain Dragonmaster for the duration of his life makes more sense. If Luna dies a mortal, she'll still need protection from her Dragonmaster right up to the point her heart stops beating. But, that's not the way the remake did it.

Also, I'm not sure Zophar swiping Althena's power actually did do much for his fighting ability. Dark Gods of Destruction tend to be better at killing THAN (Than, darnit, THAN!) Goddesses of Creation on general principle. Though it remains unclear how long Zophar actually had Althena's power. As he claims that he has it before Lucia breaks free...is he possessing the power vicariously, or did he rip it out of Lucia? If the latter, at what point in the fight did he lose it, and to what? He certainly doesn't seem to have it by the third fight where it's Hiro and Lucia vs. Zophar.

Lastly...this is a point I hadn't brought up yet...but what exactly did Zophar's curse do? Lucia in the Blue Spire has 777 HP...does that make a difference? Yes, but only if you're insane enough to level up...while Lucia's still in the party...to level 99 for all your characters. If you do that, Lucia...once again has 777 hp, and is indeed as strong as she was in the Blue Spire. Mechanically, it looks like all Zophar's curse managed to do was drop her 98 levels. Ronfar uncursing her brings her back to level (whatever Hiro is.)

...And if the games insist on making points in illogical ways, it makes figuring them out that much harder. Le sigh.

[ilovemyguitar]

Laike has MP in TSS and uses skills like Kyle's (and gains a new one when you level him up from his starting level 95 to 96).

He DOES? Why did I not know this? Did I just forget? *Scurries off to play TSS again*

[Angelalex242]

Althena couldn't have been a complete god. Else she wouldn't have to nuke a planet to take Zophar out. She'd be able to do it without collateral damage.

Althena and Zophar are beings of equal statue, with Lucia a little weaker (initially) then both.

Of course, Althena kicks the bucket, so never mind her. (Boy, that'd get the Churches closed down fast.) "Yeah, people of the world, Althena kicked the bucket. So don't bother praying to her. She's dead and gone. Her ears, stopped with good old fashioned dirt, can no longer hear your prayers, and her body's worm food just like the rest of us when we die."

That leaves, in a post Lunar 2 world, Zophar the...banished for a good long time, as again, his dialogue doesn't suggest he's gone for good...

And Lucia. Lucia who...goes back to the Blue Star at least as strong as she was in the blue spire, and probably stronger. Whether she surpasses Zophar the banished and Althena the dead...may not even be relevant, because neither of them will be an issue.

Althena:She was goddess of love and beauty. And Song, obviously.

[ilovemyguitar]

Well, with Althena gone, it's very possible that people might start worshipping Lucia. Even if she isn't actually a Goddess (which hasn't been clearly defined yet), people might start viewing her as such.

That would make a pretty interesting premise for Lunar 3.

[Angelalex242]

She's no more or less a goddess then Althena was.

If she can claim Althena's power, who less people argue about as a goddess, simply by raising her hand and claiming it, she likely is a fit conduit for such power. Mortals with too much power to tend to go bad...absolute power corrupts absolutely, and all that. (See Ghaleon...)

But a goddess is designed to handle the power she has in a mature manner. Lucia clearly falls into this category, as she hardly lords it over people.

But yeah, that was a theory I had. A lunar 3 where you don't see Althena statues, and instead see Lucia statues. Everyone prays to her, etc. And Althena's name sort of drops off the map.

[Ardekh]

Well, she's definately not a mortal, being genetalia-less, and all.

[phyco126]

About Ghaleon, he may have been corrupted by power, but only because he was doing what he felt best, not just because of power alone. Also, in EBC, he uses his power to help Hiro and friends to defeat Zophar.

I believe that Althena was a complete Goddess, because if she wasn't, then I doubt that she would be able to turn the Blue Star into a cinder. It seems to me that she controls the magic and a few other things, but she doesn't involve herself directly into human matters, unless of course the entire planet is at risk (destroying Zophar, creating Lunar, banning the Vile Tribe, etc etc...) However, I still tend to believe that the god's can die.

Though, I find Lunar Mythology intrueging to study, but it seems to me that it's more like Greek Mythology. Althena could be the Zeus of Lunar Mythology. She can become human, but she could still be defeated (as I recall the Gods of Greek Mythology could still have things happen to them, I should read up to be sure that I'm not talking outa my...)

Althena still needed protection, Lucia could still be defeated, along with Zophar. I'm curious if there are other Gods and Goddesses out there.

Edit: As for being genitelia-less, I'm more inclinded to believe that she does have all the full features of humans and beastwomen. I'm just sure they didn't want to draw them, as they wanted to show a naked women walking around. Which makes sense to me, as that adds to her character's growth and stuff.

[Angelalex242]

I agree. I believe Lucia is in fact a fully equipped woman.

...Or Else Hiro's in for one HELL of a rude awakening, and I don't think the developers intended that.

...Comes to that, Fei and Elly had a similar problem in Xenogears, thanks to the anime. I think, however, that just because it isn't drawn by prudish animators, doesn't mean it isn't there. It just means they were trying to avoid rated M. Or rated AO. Whichever one full frontal nudity is. Think RL politics and screaming parents, here...

[Ardekh]

My favorite part in the Xenogears ending is when Fei stands up suddenly and he says, "You're wrong, Krelian!" and I'm just like, "....sit down, Fei."

I was just joking about the genetalia; if Hiro and her can't have kids, nothing would happen.

[Angelalex242]

I'm not sure Hiro knocking Lucia up is necessary to reviving the Blue Star, if that's what you're implying. The Star Dragon, at least, doesn't think it's necessary. Or even wise, for that matter, considering his 'thou shalt not pass unless thou canst smiteth me' attitude towards Hiro.

I am, however, sure that Hiro knocking Lucia up (or at least trying!) is probably rather high on Hiro's agenda. Since, ya know, there's LITERALLY nothing else to do on the barren planet the Blue Star is till Lucia fixes it.

It's not like Lucia's got video games or computer or a TV to watch Monday Night Football with in that Fortress of hers, however many rooms it has...

...That's a nice sidetrack.

If you're alone with the goddess of your dreams on a Planet several times the size of Lunar...what do you DO with your time? (Besides the obvious)

[phyco126]

I explore EVERYWHERE *pervertadly laughs*

[Ardekh]

[Angelalex242]

Ya know, I did say BESIDES THE OBVIOUS, Phyco...

The Blue Star, just based on it being in an ice age (till Lucia fixes it) would be kinda dangerous to go exploring in due to Hypothermia. Lucia'd have to keep a constant eye on her boytoy to make sure he doesn't get himself killed on accident.

Hiro doesn't even have Ruby any more to look out for him. He's on his own out there if Lucia's at home doing planet revival rituals...

[phyco126]

Bah, if he survived an avalanch, then I'm sure he'll be fine on the Blue Star

[Angelalex242]

He 'survived' an Avalanche cause his Divine Girlfriend can raise the dead...

I usually say the party actually died in that Avalance...and then Lucia pulled a ressurectit secodixit. Sort of.

[Blue_Sycro]

But an evil person couldn't become a Dragonmaster, because the black dragon even mentioned that they have to find purity or something like that....kill me if someone said that already...

[Alunissage]

So much to answer...I hate being away when the kind of discussion I’m here for is actually occurring.

Lucia is depicted as pretty young. Come on, this is Shigema. She’s probably the equivalent of fourteen. Actually, the EB guide says something of the sort as a joke, but I don’t know if that’s taken from anything specific. Too lazy to get up and dig through the game manuals; the artbook doesn’t say.

At any rate, Hiro shouldn’t be too surprised. The girl’s a stick figure and about as womanly. This, too, was deliberate, to make her look childlike. I don’t really think they should’ve put that kiss in at the end of EBC, as she seems too young for that. And being knocked up? What a revolting idea. What makes you think she’s even capable of crossbreeding?

Althena was the Goddess of Love and Beauty. Probably not terribly significant, though, and just describing her own attributes. Though we had a fun discussion over at the Shrine once about whether there was a whole pantheon originally of which she was the sole survivor, which led to my favorite pre-history idea.

Althena clearly also has power to heal. That’s what the priests do, and what Ronfar calls on, and (obviously) what the statues do. And the EB opening I quoted indicates that she created Lunar before it was necessary to shift the entire surviving population of the Blue Star there, so her powers of creation make some sense. Note that there are very few priestly spells that are attacks...Ronfar’s Light/Bright/Shining Litany is the only one I recall offhand (and my favorite of his spells; I nearly defeated Borgan with Ronfar alone using it). That’s still a healing spell, but it heals the party an aggregate total of half the damage it does to the enemy. Nonetheless, it’s generally not aggressive magic and it doesn’t surprise me that it couldn’t really be used offensively against Zophar. Luna does have an attack song in TSS, Destruction, although it’s fairly rare to get to as she’s usually far below the required level at the time you leave her in Saith. The name kind of goes with the backstory in EBC, though; perhaps it’s all or nothing as far as her ability to attack/destroy is. This kind of fits with Lucia’s having to destroy Lunar if she is to again confine Zophar, that she couldn’t just use part of it or only destroy him; it also works with what use Zophar would have for it.

The power of healing and creation isn’t incompatible with her ruling people in Lunar, though. After all, a certain amount of emotional healing and rebuilding of civilization would have had to occur. (Imagine the whole world being like New Orleans is right now...) However, her power might not have been suited to long-term rulership, and that could be why she felt ultimately too weak to continue to be the goddess. As an analogy, imagine going through the game with only a priest. Sure, they can heal, but they usually have lousy defense and very little offense. I don’t think the idea of her being weak enough to need help from the dragons (Kyle/Mia/Nash-types) and the Dragonmaster (Alex, duh) is incongruous. Actually, it’s a rather intriguing idea, to have a protagonist be a healer and not a strong fighter...but that’s some other discussion. Anyway, it may well have been draining and why she decided to put that power of healing into her statues and step down. Though the statues are in SSSC and DS, so that last bit isn’t relevant. People still pray to the statues and call on her power (in the case of Ronfar and Jessica) to heal, so her power is still there even though she’s not.

Laike does indeed have about four skills in TSS. They’re named differently from Kyle’s (one is Coup de Grace and I don’t remember the others), but if you actually take the trouble to accumulate the 100,000 EXP to level him up to 96 from his starting 95 in the brief area in which you have him, he will gain one of Kyle’s skills, I think Slayride. Oh, and all of 1 HP to his max.

Zophar’s curse also makes it impossible for Lucia to heal OR attack, obviously. That’s the source of the Ruby Attacks bugfix in EBC; Lucia’s only battle move prior to being uncursed is to defend. She can’t use any of her magic at all. And, obviously, she takes a long time to recover. I’m also slightly inclined to think that she doesn’t get all of her pre-curse magic back; I seem to recall that in EBC she never does use some of her pre-curse spells thereafter. Of course, she didn’t have many; she had about ten attack spells in EB.

The Robin Williams movie was The Bicentennial Man. I never watched it, but I did read the Isaac Asimov story of which it’s an adaptation.

Zophar only talks about not being gone for good in the WD game. The Japanese creators didn’t put that in and may well not feel bound by it (though at least one WD addition was adopted by them).

One of the reasons Hiro is so annoying as a character is that hormones are pretty much the only reason he bothers to do anything at all in the game. Couldn’t really care less about saving the world if it hadn’t been some young sticklike, er attractive female asking him.

Hiro’s an “archaeologist” and would probably have gone off to find ruins in the Blue Star or simply studied the tower. But yes, the boredom factor is another reason why it’s stupid of him to go there unless he really does intend to sabotage any hope of a future for humanity there by getting Lucia to quit her job as he expected her to after Zophar’s defeat. But try telling that to someone who’s never bothered to think with his brain. He even thinks archaeology is defacing ruins with chisels.

[Angelalex242]

Curse:At level 99, she recovers fully. If you're ever patient enough to level to 99 with Lucia in the party, (As I was) you can doublecheck me, or use a cheating device to get her up to level 99. Whichever. At any rate, whatever remnants of her curse was left at 99 would've been destroyed anyway when she claimed Althena's power. She does have two spells in the Blue Spire I've never seen her use after that...Atomic Blow and Solar Flare. (Atomic Blow is basically a zone attack with Lucia at the center, and Solar Flare is Black Dragon Grief renamed. She only uses that when you get Hiro to level 14 in the Spire, though. Likewise, getting to see Atomic Blow even IN the Spire is tough...you have to put her in the front of the party to see it...and ya know, I never tried putting Lucia in front of the party at level 99. Maybe she can still use Atomic Blow...) But anyways, Althena, logically, should be able to fix such things...and therefore her power can. As you say, she's a healer, so she's in her element.

...She's just 14, huh? She seemed older to me. Then again, I tend to think of Lucia more in terms of several milennia old. But I always thought she was older then that. And then I wrote the lack of womanly attributes off to trying to avoid rated M or AO materials. As for crossbreeding...well, looking at it from a developer point of view, Hiro's sure an idiot if she can't. For the matter of that, did Alex and Luna have children? Granted, Althena humanized herself, but either way, Luna's fertility or lack thereof is a fairly good indicator of Lucia's.

...And do goddesses even age? Althena did seem a little younger nuking the Blue Star then she seemed when in that scene with DM Dyne, humanizing herself. She seemed significantly more matronly, with Dyne. Then again, ya know those lazy animators...

And her power is there till Lucia swipes it. At that point, all healing is done by the 'Power of Humanity.' Whether Zophar has it, or Lucia takes it back, or whatever, I'm fairly certain humanity isn't healing with it anymore.

Interestingly, though, Statues still work even when Lucia swipes Althena's power. Wierd.

I agree, however, that 'Althena's power is the Power of Creation, and there can be no new creation without destroying the old.' Between Althena and Lucia, Lucia is the more offense oriented of the two. She's got some nice attack ability. ...and less healing ability then Luna has, it might be noted. Lucia can heal one person and that's it, Luna can heal the whole party, for example...also, it's noteable Luna's attack power was edited out. Althena truly isn't meant to be an attacker (Unlike Lucia).

Then again, it takes more power to create then it does to destroy, and that's why Althena is stronger overall (Then both Lucia and Zophar, for that matter...)

Althena, I would argue, didn't feel too WEAK to be goddess, however, she felt too strong. Like she was holding humanity back by letting them rely on her. She wanted humanity to rely on its own power. That wonderful Power of Humanity, yay.

In EBC, Lucia has...Power (the first spell she gets back, Defense up), Power Charge, Heal Litany, Atomic Needle, Thunder Circle, Thunder Rain...then Atomic Burn, Thunder Blow, Plasma Rain, Atomic Blow, and Solar Flare, which are her Blue Spire attacks. With the exception of Heal Litany, she only uses her Blue Spire attacks once your level gets up there, (And she never uses heal litany in the Spire...) for a total of 11 spells. Though she never uses more then 5 at a time.

...The earlier debate about knocking Lucia up stems from the fact that Hiro truly does think with the wrong head. And...yeah, boredom. The Star Dragon tried to stop him...it's not his fault Hiro happened to have overwhelming strength. So...he just sorta had to let it go...

...I wonder, though, if that might not be something to base a story off of. Exactly how much distracting from Lucia's mission can Hiro manage? Would that create 'marital problems' as Lucia tries to do her duty while Hiro, bored to tears on the uninhabited Blue Star tries to get her to pay more attention to him?

...but I still call Lucia beautiful, damnit! And she's not a stick figure. You should see the wordbased descriptions I make for her. She's certainly no stick figure or barbie doll then...