A Lunar plot point that's always bugged me...

[Nobiyuki77]

There's always been one bit about the story in Lunar that's made me scratch my head more than once. For the record, there will be spoilers for Sega CD canon. If you haven't played those.... erm... go do so now. I'll wait. ^^

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Wow, you made me wait 60 hours ya know? ^^;

Anyway, to my plot question. In TSS, Ghaleon reveals himself as the Magic Emperor and kills Quark (Fidy, whichever you prefer) and then proceeds to kill the Blue and Red dragons, leaving the insane Black dragon to Alex and Co. to finish off. As I understand it, he did this to prevent the emergence of a new Dragonmaster (if no dragons exist, no dragonmaster can). The flaw in his plan was Nall, the offspring of Quark, still lived. One dragon remains, Alex saves the day, yadda yadda yadda.

Here's my question.

How did they come back in EB??

From my understanding, Nall was *it*. Singular. The last. Yet 1000 years later in EB, Ruby, along with new White, Black, and Blue dragons exist once more. Did Luna (Althena) recreate them? Was that even possible for her to do since she set aside her immortality to become human? I somehow doubt that they just appeared out of thin air, and I don't think Nall could reproduce by himself.

Did I totally miss something? Is there something in one of the novels that never made it stateside that explains this phenomenon? Or is it just a huge gaping plot hole?

[Alunissage]

I don't remember what's stated where, but the dragons are embodiments of magical energy. It may even be stated explicitly that new ones come into being when old ones die (though this is rarely through old age). They don't really "reproduce" (Nall says he must be the offspring of Quark, and Ghaleon says in EB that he killed Nall's father, but they aren't necessarily correct), so the fact that for a time Nall was the only one around doesn't really matter. My bigger question has been why Nall was around before Quark's death, though I liked my speculation that he was actually supposed to replace the insane/deceased Black Dragon, since that time period fits.

None of this is in the SegaCD games, but I don't think that's surprising -- they're games first, stories second, as far as the quest to talk to all the dragons is concerned. But it's talked about somewhere, perhaps the 30 Questions with Kei Shigema.

[ilovemyguitar]

Actually, there was some dialogue in Dragon Song that may clear this up a bit.

*Dragon Song spoilers*

When Jian is on his quest to become a Dragonmaster, he is told by the Red Dragon that the dragons are physical manifestations of the magic on Lunar, and that the death of the dragons' bodies doesn't actually mean the end of them. I'm fairly sure that the implication here is that after a dragon's death the magic of Lunar will eventually manifest into a new dragon.

As for Nall's existence, my guess is he came to be because Quark was nearing the end of this lifespan and was beginning to lose magic power, so the world's magic had naturally begun to manifest into a new dragon.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Actually, there was some dialogue in Dragon Song that may clear this up a bit.

*Dragon Song spoilers*

When Jian is on his quest to become a Dragonmaster, he is told by the Red Dragon that the dragons are physical manifestations of the magic on Lunar, and that the death of the dragons' bodies doesn't actually mean the end of them. I'm fairly sure that the implication here is that after a dragon's death the magic of Lunar will eventually manifest into a new dragon.

As for Nall's existence, my guess is he came to be because Quark was nearing the end of this lifespan and was beginning to lose magic power, so the world's magic had naturally begun to manifest into a new dragon.

as far as this goes, this can definitely hold me over for now. thanks.

[Alunissage]

I figured it was best to stick with the earlier materials to try to answer that, given that Nobi said he'd been bothered by this since playing the SCD games and that Genesis introduced several elements which weren't in previous games or material. But the 30 Questions was in the Lunar I+II artbook, which is about the original games.

[Nobiyuki77]

Well either way, that answers my question in whole! Thanks guys! ^_^

[BattleMedic]

That also makes me wonder, in Lunar 2, Lucia absorbs all the magic in lunar to fight zophar, wouldn't that have killed off the dragons?

[Sonic#]

Killed the dragons?

I don't view the dragons as fleshy beasts, but as manifestations of Althena's power that take a physical form. If we're looking at it that way, they don't die so much as disappear within Lucia. They can (and do) come back when that power is released again. The only way they would die is if the magic disappeared entirely.

[Angelalex242]

I don't think Lucia took the dragon's power.

The first time around, she didn't call for Althena's power, she called the 4 dragons to help. Zophar laughs and goes, "Sucker, I sealed them already!"

Hence, calling for the Power of Althena and calling for the power of the Dragons is two different things.

[Sonic#]

Maybe. Now the issue is whether Althena's power includes the four dragons. That is, calling for one is included in calling for the other... like calling for the power Althena invested in them, as well as everything else. Like life.

[ilovemyguitar]

Since Ruby didn't vanish, I'm guessing it doesn't.

[Angelalex242]

That, and on the reliefs that show Althena's flight to the Silver Star, the 4 dragons are flying along with her under their own power. Between that, and Ruby's continued existence, I think the Dragons are separate from the Power of Althena.

[Kizyr]

Well either way, that answers my question in whole! Thanks guys! ^_^

To underscore what ilmg and Alun said, here's an excerpt from the EB Novel, Vol. 2 (already online) that you might find relevant:

Ruby: Does that mean... I was sealed?
Nall: Yeah, you were sealed. The Dragons span across generations, old and new... and you're on the younger end.
Ruby: So the old Red Dragons... is that my mother and father?
Nall: ...Dragons don't have parents. We're reborn, like Althena. The only difference is that, unlike Althena, a new Dragon can be reborn before the old one disappears...

KF

[DezoPenguin]

To underscore what ilmg and Alun said, here's an excerpt from the EB Novel, Vol. 2 (already online) that you might find relevant:

Nall: ...Dragons don't have parents. We're reborn, like Althena. The only difference is that, unlike Althena, a new Dragon can be reborn before the old one disappears...

KF

Wait a second. That doesn't even make sense. If the Dragons are "reborn like Althena" (note: "reborn," not "incarnated" or "created" or "expressed from the background magic of Lunar") then that means that Nall's claiming that he and Quark/Fidy are the same being and that they're both existing simultaneously with separate consciousnesses! Now, unless we're going to start drawing parallels to Hindu deities for Lunar's mythology (and maybe we really need to start doing that) or we think that Nall picked a really bad metaphor to explain how dragons work (possible--after all, dragons seems to get incarnated naturally while Althena takes on human form as an act of will) because he was trying to get Ruby to understand the whole "lack of parents" thing (There's a lesson, folks: never let your kids get raised by another species and expect them to understand the birds and the bees), I think we have a problem here.

Questions here:

1) Does Ghaleon make the reference to Nall's father in EB in Japanese as well?
2) Was the Lunar novel you're quoting from written prior to SSS's release in Japan or after it?

[Kizyr]

Wait a second. That doesn't even make sense. If the Dragons are "reborn like Althena" (note: "reborn," not "incarnated" or "created" or "expressed from the background magic of Lunar") then that means that Nall's claiming that he and Quark/Fidy are the same being and that they're both existing simultaneously with separate consciousnesses! Now, unless we're going to start drawing parallels to Hindu deities for Lunar's mythology (and maybe we really need to start doing that) or we think that Nall picked a really bad metaphor to explain how dragons work (possible--after all, dragons seems to get incarnated naturally while Althena takes on human form as an act of will) because he was trying to get Ruby to understand the whole "lack of parents" thing (There's a lesson, folks: never let your kids get raised by another species and expect them to understand the birds and the bees), I think we have a problem here.

Questions here:

1) Does Ghaleon make the reference to Nall's father in EB in Japanese as well?
2) Was the Lunar novel you're quoting from written prior to SSS's release in Japan or after it?

3) You're taking too literal a definition of "reborn". That's not what Nall was implying, so the rest of what you mentioned in the first paragraph doesn't really follow. He was implying that they weren't born in the traditional sense.

As for 1 and 2, I can't remember if Ghaleon makes the reference to Nall's father the same way. Though I'm not sure why it would matter? Also, the novel was written after SSS's release. KF

[DezoPenguin]

Questions here:

1) Does Ghaleon make the reference to Nall's father in EB in Japanese as well?
2) Was the Lunar novel you're quoting from written prior to SSS's release in Japan or after it?

3) You're taking too literal a definition of "reborn". That's not what Nall was implying, so the rest of what you mentioned in the first paragraph doesn't really follow. He was implying that they weren't born in the traditional sense.

Okay, then why doesn't he just say that? When I see "reborn," I think "born again," or in this sense "reincarnated." (y'know, like "The Dragon Reborn" in the WoT books) Maybe the Japanese sense of the word doesn't mean quite the same thing...but at least in English, I get hung up on that "re" at the beginning. I mean, it makes complete sense if Quark and Nall are different "people" and that the nature of dragons just happens to be different in that they manifest directly from magic instead of reproducing biologically. Actually, "incarnated" (without the "re") would express that concept better for me. Unless I'm just missing the whole point...again.

As for 1 and 2, I can't remember if Ghaleon makes the reference to Nall's father the same way. Though I'm not sure why it would matter? Also, the novel was written after SSS's release. KF

Well, 1 matters to me because if WD stuck the line in then we can hardly expect Game Arts to be consistent with it. As for the latter point, there are some definite cosmological changes between TSS and SSS Lunar, and that kind of thing would reasonably carry over to the dragons as well...

[Kizyr]

Okay, then why doesn't he just say that? When I see "reborn," I think "born again," or in this sense "reincarnated." (y'know, like "The Dragon Reborn" in the WoT books) Maybe the Japanese sense of the word doesn't mean quite the same thing...but at least in English, I get hung up on that "re" at the beginning. I mean, it makes complete sense if Quark and Nall are different "people" and that the nature of dragons just happens to be different in that they manifest directly from magic instead of reproducing biologically. Actually, "incarnated" (without the "re") would express that concept better for me. Unless I'm just missing the whole point...again.

Well, yes. You're forgetting the fact that translations aren't exact.

The word used for rebirth is 転生, which doesn't contain a prefix corresponding to "re" in the sense of "again". The part 転 implies the action of revolving/revolution. The prefix "re" meaning "again" is best approximated with the part 再, as in 再生, which means rebirth.

The word "rebirth" can be both 転生 and 再生, but 再生 is rebirth in the sense that you're thinking, which isn't the word used. 転生 is closer to reincarnation, but reincarnation doesn't necessarily mean the same person is reincarnated in a new body.

Now you see why I sometimes don't like translating.

Well, 1 matters to me because if WD stuck the line in then we can hardly expect Game Arts to be consistent with it. As for the latter point, there are some definite cosmological changes between TSS and SSS Lunar, and that kind of thing would reasonably carry over to the dragons as well...

The thing is, Ghaleon did kill Quark, so I don't see how adding or removing the line would change anything. I did answer your question about when it was published, however.

I checked my screenshots and notes. There's nothing like the "shooting for a matched set" line, or any reference to Nall's father, in the Japanese versions (EB and EBC). KF