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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:52 pm
by Kizyr
burn321 wrote:Yeah Eternal Blue Continued, PSX was the only platform I knew it came on I got the game from my madre aha. Even if he was a difficult boss in the Sega version, the character still had no motivation for being evil. Mauri was tainted by Zophar's blood, Lunn was a jackass to begin with, the Fake Althena was vein and weak, Ghaleon (I love him but he was evil) was the Magic Emperor so duh there, Borgon was just... nothing. He had no motivation aside from a lust for power which he had achieved even before Zophar. He was just an unexplained character, I don't know I just couldn't find a scrape of respect for him, he was rape-y, and unsympathetic, and cowardly and I hated him

Honestly, I agree with a lot of this sentiment. Borgan's character arc (and how people responded) was the most difficult to really fit with the rest of the story.

Everyone in the upper echelon's of Althena's Guard had some clear motivation (Borgan included), but Borgan is the only one whose arc didn't actually resolve in any way. Consider:
  • Zophar: Evil expressed through the manipulation of humanity's greed and base desires. No redemption, only defeat.
  • False Althena: Vanity and fear of death (elaborated upon in the EB novels), which led to her manipulation by Zophar. Also no redemption; this vanity was her undoing when Zophar continued to use her.
  • Ghaleon: Not actually evil -- all his "evil" actions were to put into place the means of Zophar's eventual defeat. His redemption was Hiro's recognition of this effort.
  • Leo: Not actually evil, but rather tricked into doing Zophar's bidding. His redemption was breaking out and turning against those who manipulated him into evil. Impeccable fashion sense.
  • Mauri: Not actually evil, but rather being controlled by the blood of Zophar. Her redemption was being free from this control.
  • Lunn: Mad with power and overly ambitious, which led to him accepting Zophar's help for even greater power. He kidnapped and enslaved others, and after being defeated and accepting he was in the wrong, he accepts also that what he did was beyond redemption (at least in the US version -- the Japanese version has Jean actually forgiving him, which I don't like). So, his "redemption" wasn't something that forgave his past, but at least left him trying to contribute something to the ultimate defeat of Zophar.
  • Borgan: Jealous at others' power versus his own weakness (elaborated upon in the Lemina novel), and a desire for revenge, which led to his acceptance of Zophar's help for power that he could finally wield over others. Like Lunn, he enslaved others, but with his defeat it's as if he never really accepted or admitted how horrible the things he did was. He even was "forgiven" by Miria! He doesn't get any redemption, but (unlike Lunn) they gloss right over that and act like he didn't do anything at all by the end.

So, yeah, in my mind, Borgan was the worst of the lot. He did horrible things, was defeated, pretended like those horrible things never happened, and never was called to answer for them. He's like the classic war criminal who goes on to live out the rest of his life in a village somewhere.

Ugh, I forgot how much I hated him as a character... I actually rated Lunn as worse than Borgan when I initially answered this poll, but now I'm not so sure. KF

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:45 am
by Leo
The impression I got was that they considered him having to live the rest of his life being the piece of crap he is was punishment enough. Not just that, but even with Miria's ridiculous forgiveness and the rest of the cast moving on with their goals...what about all of the people he wronged? I would imagine that it wouldn't take long for his crimes against humanity to come back to bite him in the ass. I doubt he made it long after he lost his power.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:57 pm
by jay_are
Leo wrote:The impression I got was that they considered him having to live the rest of his life being the piece of crap he is was punishment enough. Not just that, but even with Miria's ridiculous forgiveness and the rest of the cast moving on with their goals...what about all of the people he wronged? I would imagine that it wouldn't take long for his crimes against humanity to come back to bite him in the ass. I doubt he made it long after he lost his power.


Hmmmm... Intredasting.
Maybe if this was TSS, we would have seen him getting burnt by the victims.
But since everyone else clearly got their punishment, it should still have been seen in the game.
The game tends to see Borgan as a humorous character (that Bromide.......)
.............. maaaybe he's the one that's gonna clean the trash in every city?
Maybe he will clean the public toilets if there's such a thing?
Ugh I dont know. I wouldn't even trust him with that.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:52 am
by Kizyr
Leo wrote:The impression I got was that they considered him having to live the rest of his life being the piece of crap he is was punishment enough. Not just that, but even with Miria's ridiculous forgiveness and the rest of the cast moving on with their goals...what about all of the people he wronged? I would imagine that it wouldn't take long for his crimes against humanity to come back to bite him in the ass. I doubt he made it long after he lost his power.

I know... the more I think about it the more it bugs me. I mean, with Lunn, Jean's position was basically that he was still horrible, but she made sure he understood that he'd be dead if he ever started walking down the path of power again -- and, she basically used him in return to get the necessary skills to defeat Zophar herself. She basically turned him into a source of strength, but didn't just let him go on his merry way.

With Borgan... no one puts the same checks on him. Miria trusts him not to do wrong again, but nothing convinced me that this wasn't at least a bit naive -- I mean, Lemina still doesn't trust him, she just doesn't push the issue while Miria at least keeps her eye on him.

Lunar's not the kind of story where people take revenge. But what Borgan did was really horrible, and it's like he's just let off the hook of his own recognizance? I mean, at least toss him in jail somewhere in Vane? In real-life, war criminals or warlords, if they've lost a war, tend to either (a) retire in some remote village somewhere (if they're not picked up by the ICC), or (b) surround themselves with reporters and deny all wrongdoing. They don't jump back into the kind of society that'd seek justice... KF

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:03 am
by nadiaff
Vepuka the Wind Fairy!! Oh wait, that's the wrong game.... (And I don't even dislike her. She was funny. Oh WD, how you loved your fart jokes.)

To be honest, my least favorite is probably Lucia because of how obnoxiously blinded she was to everything (and because her English VA sounded like she was strung out while playing that character.) But I didn't dislike her that much. I mostly just wanted to give her a few shoulder punches and be like, "Stop that. No. Bad. Believe in your friends, dumbie." I might not be so charitable replaying the game now, though, because I've become grumpier in my dotage.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:41 pm
by Shiva Indis
Kizyr wrote:Lunar's not the kind of story where people take revenge. But what Borgan did was really horrible, and it's like he's just let off the hook of his own recognizance? I mean, at least toss him in jail somewhere in Vane?

I just started imagining a fanfic where Borgan's victims come looking for him, but it would be difficult to match something like that to the tone the series usually takes. Perhaps instead, a story where someone convinces him to make amends to the people he hurt? The trouble is, Borgan isn't actually good at anything -- except possibly running his mouth. (In the Japanese version I'm not sure even that applies.)

nadiaff wrote:My least favorite is probably Lucia because of how obnoxiously blinded she was to everything (and because her English VA sounded like she was strung out while playing that character.)

Her VA bothered me too. The spacey-sounding delivery wasn't right for the character at all, since Lucia is supposed to be all business.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:18 am
by Leo
He'd go into hiding but eventually be taken down like Griselda Blanco.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:50 pm
by ShugoHanasaki
I have to say, Ramus. He was only there for a human shield despite the plot advancement. He only ever earned HP and didn't last long in the game. Plus he's kind of a putz XD

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:44 am
by Alunissage
I think I wrote a post defending Ramus at some point. He's the one who actually gets Alex to up and follow his dreams rather than just hanging around Burg. He wants to find the White Dragon and passes the Trial just as much as Alex (and Luna) does. He didn't continue on the quest, but that was fine, because he achieved his own dream of being a successful businessman. He also shows some genuine cleverness along the way, catching Brett. He's physically cowardly, but he knows his strengths and plays to those -- see all the books on business he has in the shop after he's cleared out Dross's texts on conning people. So what if he's a Hufflepuff? Not everyone can be in Gryffindor. Wait.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:42 am
by Shinto-Cetra
Borgan and Lunn are pretty much tied. I hated both, but they got off way too easy. I would have liked to see both receive much more punishment...Maybe Mystere could help with that? :lol:

But seriously, exile them at least.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:57 pm
by ShugoHanasaki
Lunn was alright. I liked his evil background story. I kind of wish we had more on that, More on Jeans past with him, ect ect.

Borgan was just down right creepy! But he entertained me greatly a times. I never laughed so hard at that bromide of his XD

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:15 pm
by Imperial Knight
Yeah, both of their redemptions ring false to me. I feel like you need more than just "I'll be good now, I promise" after defeating them to be believable. One of the notable weak points of the story.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:06 am
by ShugoHanasaki
Imperial Knight wrote:Yeah, both of their redemptions ring false to me. I feel like you need more than just "I'll be good now, I promise" after defeating them to be believable. One of the notable weak points of the story.


exactly this!

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:28 am
by Alunissage
The Star Dragon works better in the SegaCD Lunar 2. There are two encounters with (probably) the same person, as the Phantom Sentry atop Bandit Butte and the Star Sentry in, lemme think, the Sunken Spire. The Phantom Sentry talks with Lucia, telling her that she's early. Both encounters foreshadow the last battle.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:43 am
by Kizyr
Alunissage wrote:So what if he's a Hufflepuff? Not everyone can be in Gryffindor. Wait.

Really though, as much as people like to harp on Hufflepuff, in reality that's the house that most everyone would want to be in -- or if not in, you'd at least want to be around the kind of folks in Hufflepuff. (And I'm saying this as someone who'd almost certainly get sorted into Ravenclaw.)

'Cause the main thing about Hufflepuff is that they're accepting of everyone. No judgment, no superiority complex, nothing about having to be braver, smarter, or more clever/powerful than everyone else -- just be accepting and a good friend. ...which is kind of what Ramus is. He nudged Alex (who, well, is Gryffindor-like) into adventure, and gave him exactly the fair share he promised at the end. Plus he was accepting of his own limitations and still supported Alex to the best of his ability.

Meanwhile the least-redeeming main player character (Nash) is probably... ...Slytherin.

Actually I think Dyne may be somewhere between Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. KF

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:35 am
by Alunissage
Nah, Kiz, you're totally Slytherin. Just ask Damon, the Ravenclaw Head of House. Fortunately, Jenner is definitely Gryffindor and keeps you on your best side. >_> Wait, what were we talking about again?

I'd have to agree with your sorting of Nash, but I still think of him as the TSS version who plays a double agent (and gets injured in the process) to get Alex information, rather than the despondent, misguided weakling of SSS. It's like there's some sort of conservation of non-protagonist heroics, and SSS Kyle was given that weird scene with Plaster Mel and the fake battle in the mines with Alex to establish his second-string heroism so Nash had to be made worse.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:13 pm
by AkagisWhiteComet
I didn't actually vote on the poll, but is it wrong that one of my most hated LUNAR characters was Luna in the original TSS?

Playing through TSS I didn't really feel anything for her as a character. She's barely with you in the party, and while I'm like "yeah I know the party has to rescue her and all" after a while it kind of felt like "uhh who am I rescuing again?..." I do like her character in TSSC and the other remakes as not only does she met most of the party sans Kyle but she also has her own quirky humor about things and as they happen, whereas in TSS she just kind of feels like a girl-next-door (or in this case literally in-the-house) who is tagging along.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:39 pm
by Shinto-Cetra
AkagisWhiteComet wrote:I didn't actually vote on the poll, but is it wrong that one of my most hated LUNAR characters was Luna in the original TSS?

Playing through TSS I didn't really feel anything for her as a character. She's barely with you in the party, and while I'm like "yeah I know the party has to rescue her and all" after a while it kind of felt like "uhh who am I rescuing again?..." I do like her character in TSSC and the other remakes as not only does she met most of the party sans Kyle but she also has her own quirky humor about things and as they happen, whereas in TSS she just kind of feels like a girl-next-door (or in this case literally in-the-house) who is tagging along.


I don't think she's hate-worthy, but I do think she was underdeveloped on TSS. I overall prefer TSS but Luna and Alex are some the aspects I like better in the remakes.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:32 pm
by Alunissage
Funny, I recently reread a defense of TSS Luna I wrote here some years ago. I don't have the link to the thread handy (I copied it into a Word doc for reference), but here's some of what I said:

I don't recall finding her personality itself particularly deficient. Maybe I just filled in whatever was missing with, say, my sister's personality (she was about 14 when I first played TSS). It's nice that the remake gave Luna more time to show her personality, but I always got the feeling that whatever introspection and character development shown in that version had simply already occurred in Luna before TSS's story began, so she was already pretty comfortable with who she was, and her relationships with the people around her. Hence why she could make the decision that with Alex off on an adventure, it was more important for her to be with his parents than with him -- she could trust him to take care of himself off on his own, just as he could trust her to keep things together at home. (It may also fit in better with the idea of the goddess as nurturer rather than adventurer; Althena mostly stays in her tower and lets the dragonmaster do the footwork.)

Games like this are frequently about individual growth of feckless youths, but they don't have to be, and this game being the first one I played it didn't bother me at all that Luna and Alex were already more or less grown up. Probably made it easier for me to relate to them; I have limited patience with the self-absorbed uncertainty shown on the boat, or with her constant screams for Alex to save her when she was taken into custody in Vane. Nor does she need to hear Alex playing music to take the initiative to free at least one of the captured girls (the one who gives Alex the key to Ruid). When I think about it, Luna's maturity and self-sufficience was rather dialed back in the remake.

[...]

If she'd stuck with quitting in SSSC, after all her mopey talk about it, I would've been more disappointed. But she doesn't have to have the same adventurous interests as Alex, just as Alex's father didn't have to go with Dyne.

I need to reread the TSS text, I guess, but I don't recall her saying much about how Alex is more grown-up than she thought and ready for a solo adventure, etc in that game. Just that she's decided to return to Burg, and then her voiced farewell, which goes something like this: "I never dreamed we'd say goodbye like this... Oh, Alex, you have to come back to me. I'll pray constantly for your safe return. Goodbye, my love." I think there's another line about how vast the world seems, too. But no comment about doubt or even worry, much. Again, maybe I'm just filling in a perception of character from the relative lack of text, but I read this as confidence in him as well as security in what she wants to do -- she had her taste of adventure and decided that that was enough.

Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:24 am
by Leoriosan
Alunissage wrote:I'd have to agree with your sorting of Nash, but I still think of him as the TSS version who plays a double agent (and gets injured in the process) to get Alex information, rather than the despondent, misguided weakling of SSS. It's like there's some sort of conservation of non-protagonist heroics, and SSS Kyle was given that weird scene with Plaster Mel and the fake battle in the mines with Alex to establish his second-string heroism so Nash had to be made worse.


Nash in the remakes feels like he was intended to be a character we should love to hate, but he's too buffoonish and cartoony for me to really take seriously. The closest fictional character I can think to compare him to is Sokka from Avatar: The Last Airbender, but even Sokka was given genuine moments of competence and humanity (that is, moments where you could sympathize with him). Nash merely comes off as kind of a loser and at times a creep ("I did it all for you, Mia!").*

Pretty much all the attempts to make Kyle look cool and heroic came off as forced. It doesn't help that he literally feels tacked onto the story as a love interest for Jessica, moreso in the Sega CD version. I suppose we're supposed to think he's cool and funny, but I've always found him to be really obnoxious and out-of-place with the rest of the party. He doesn't have any adult figures he looks up to like the rest of the group.

Alex is pretty much the only guy in the party to come off as truly heroic and selfless, but he lacks any personality that would make me really care about him as a character. His arc, for lack of a better word, amounts to getting everything he's ever wanted as a kid (he goes on an adventure and becomes Dragon Master) and saving his girlfriend.

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:I didn't actually vote on the poll, but is it wrong that one of my most hated LUNAR characters was Luna in the original TSS?

Playing through TSS I didn't really feel anything for her as a character. She's barely with you in the party, and while I'm like "yeah I know the party has to rescue her and all" after a while it kind of felt like "uhh who am I rescuing again?..." I do like her character in TSSC and the other remakes as not only does she met most of the party sans Kyle but she also has her own quirky humor about things and as they happen, whereas in TSS she just kind of feels like a girl-next-door (or in this case literally in-the-house) who is tagging along.


That's one of the problems I've always had with Lunar TSS on Sega CD. It feels so incomplete and barebones even for a JRPG of its day. It lacks any real character moments, and overall it feels like a step down from contemporaries such as FFIV, a game which feels more cinematic in its story-telling, limitations notwithstanding. Most of the dialogue amounts to exposition that bounces you to the next plot point ("Xenobia turned my father to stone!" "She's in league with Ghaleon, and we're going to stop them!" "You are? I'm coming with you!").

*For an ostensibly heartwarming love story that borrows its aesthetic from other fantasy stories such as Krull and Laputa, Lunar SSSC feels a tad mean-spirited at times, and I don't think WD's liberal translation is entirely to blame.