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Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 3:21 am
by Benevolent_Ghaleon
happier people perform better. the quality of how the blue star turns out is probably changed drastically by her experiences with Hiro and with having him there with her.

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:24 pm
by Sonic#
phyco126 wrote:
Alunissage wrote:Phyco, it sounds like you want a scientific study to confirm your bias rather than to find out what actually is the case.


Well, what is science? Science is the study of how things work and what-not. I want to see how women work in that aspect. Besides, a scientific study can shut me up or proove me right. I'm sure we wouldn't have some of the best ideas and concepts, even medical and technological, if no one wanted to find the truth behind their bias.


The thing about bias is that it influences the way we regard data. Of course, they have ways around this; double-blind testing, statistical analysis, and so on. So in a sense you're right, phyco. The "scientific method" is for a problem to precede the hypothesis, but there are some scientists who work the other way.

But then Alunissage also seems to be right. What would come out of this other than validation? How would your findings be useful? I think there might be a way they are useful, from a sociological standpoint. But I hope that, even if the data told you that women often work a certain way, that you wouldn't ascribe such behavior to all women. Then, even then, even after the experiments, that would be sexist, unless the experiment told you that all women do that.

Kizyr wrote:Ok, considering that Hiro pretty much received a message directly from Althena telling him not to give up on Lucia, show her the meaning of love, and all that, there really was no choice but to find a way to the Blue Star.


Excellent point! I was thinking of everything but that example.

Hiro is sincere. An insincere person wouldn't try to fight his way back to the Blue Star. He is biased. Hell, he's in love, why wouldn't he be? In one way, it's his dependence on her that pushes him to follow her there.

But that doesn't address Alunissage's point, which is that he's assuming Lucia wants him. I don't think that's quite so.

1. Lucia could have rejected him, or sent him back. Maybe it'd be tougher due to psychological factors, but it was still possible. She could've grimaced, rolled her eyes upon seeing him, been half-hearted about it. Been... coy. No, it's a whole-hearted leap out of the crystal.
2. Hiro, IIRC, wasn't absolutely sure that it'd work out. It's mainly our own expectations of the story and our (now) afterknowledge of what happens that makes us see it as inevitable.
3. I might be able to believe that Hiro is being impulsive, but all the other characters go along with it too. Why are they all, even Jean, collectively able to assume that Lucia would want him back? It isn't exclusively due to Hiro's assurances; they often agree to go with him without any arguments.
4, "He can't believe that there might be things more important than love," though in Lunar things work better with love. That's why Lunar wasn't destroyed. That's why Althena stepped down.

The only way I can see attacking Hiro and Lucia is by attacking the story structure itself. Which may be what Alunissage's trying to do. ^^;;;

Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 11:37 pm
by phyco126
Would it really keep me from changing my opinion Sonic#? There is always a chance that I will ignore it, sure. However, as a scientific kid growing up, I have always gone with what the data shows, over and over again.

This is why two studies that show two different things on the same subject can often give me a headache. Besides, in Psycology class, we learned about double-blind experiments, and those are the best I think. The problem is, however, is how the heck to you have a blind experimetor conduct such a survey or experiment for the test I want without knowing that's what it would be about?

The other problem, is that people lie. You can have a guy say that he will only date a girl for her personallity, but dump all his girls because they wanted to be married before they had sex. On the other hand, a girl can say money doesn't matter, but I'm very certain that if her boyfriend or husband lost a job and couldn't support them, even if he tried, she would ***likely*** dump the fellow.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:43 am
by Sonic#
You assume that she would have to be supported. In most cases today, she will either have a job or access to one. It may be a stress consideration with financial restraints, a factor, but if they do break up, you cannot say that it is exclusively because of the loss of his job.

Well, if you design the test right, the other person can administer it without knowing that that's what the test would be about. I know a lot of times there are either paper or computer tests. The program doesn't say (for instance) "Do you have racial prejudices?" It might ask, "To what degree do you think <racial stereotype>?" More likely, it'll do some crafty association test, or ask questions with varying degrees of relevance to make a person unwittingly tell the truth. I know that several times there have been parts of a test with no real relevance at all.

So, yes, people can lie. You can disbelieve studies. But that doesn't mean that your bias is any less of a bias or any more correct, because there'll often be someone else who is just as certain that your statement isn't so.

And, I might add, the problem with confirmation bias is twofold. It influences how someone looks at the data... and it also helps shape how they design the experiment. If I ask the right questions, maybe I can get the preferred answers, even when they aren't the most accurate ones. (There have been many times where this happens with yes-no questions.)

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:32 am
by Werefrog
Sonic# wrote:Well, if you design the test right, the other person can administer it without knowing that that's what the test would be about. I know a lot of times there are either paper or computer tests. The program doesn't say (for instance) "Do you have racial prejudices?" It might ask, "To what degree do you think <racial stereotype>?" More likely, it'll do some crafty association test, or ask questions with varying degrees of relevance to make a person unwittingly tell the truth. I know that several times there have been parts of a test with no real relevance at all.


Hey, I'm working on a project about those tests. If you'd guys like to see an example of this test and help me out with some research just let me know.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:32 am
by AnimeJei
Many females nowadays want to support themselves, not all but some. I know women, ones I was in a relationship and some of my lady friends, are like this and it's cool. Many of them are going to be doctors or something in the med field and I always feel lower going to be a character designer. It also seems like less and less couples are getting married and instead just live with each other and keep seperate bank accounts. It's part of our time now, I guess.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:14 am
by phyco126
Sonic#, do you know then of a book that was written based off a study that prooved that minorities don't do well in school because of their race? When in fact the study actually showed it was because of how they are treated in the schools, based on their race. Really intresting thing to read about.

Posted: Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:47 am
by Angelalex242
Me, I'm still amused ZopharxZophar is in 3rd place!

Watcha gonna do?

But no. Omnia vicent amor and all that. If they wanted to end the game on a tragic note, they wouldn't have included an epilogue. The epilogue is there to prove that love, indeed, does conquer all, and further, because I think the power of humanity, IE, Hiro, accelerates the revival of the Blue Star. I dunno how long it took for the Blue Star to green up like that, but it's a safe bet it happened within Hiro's mortal lifetime.

Of course, that does leave the problem of a second tragic ending when, Lucia, immortal, says goodbye to Hiro who now closely resembles Grandpa Gwyn for the last time, but that's beside the point.

Re:

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:23 pm
by Shinto-Cetra
osirus wrote:i voted whith challeon and xenobia

Ancient post, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. Counting that one fanart I found on another site years ago not by me, the GhalXen shippers now number 3!

Re: Re:

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 4:06 am
by Kizyr
Shinto-Cetra wrote:
osirus wrote:i voted whith challeon and xenobia

Ancient post, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. Counting that one fanart I found on another site years ago not by me, the GhalXen shippers now number 3!

I don't mind reviving this topic to explore this a bit further, 'cause I don't think it's talked about all that often...

Ghaleon-Xenobia was always... really tragic to me. You had Xenobia really wanting to uplift the Vile Tribe (albeit in a way that was at the expense of everyone else on Lunar) and seeing in Ghaleon someone who seemingly truly cared about the Vile Tribe to the same extent. And then when he turned towards being concerned first and foremost with himself, she still held onto that love for him. ...without getting too much into detail, that's the main thing I saw in their relationship, so it still elicits some sympathy for me, even though (as a character) I really didn't like Xenobia all that much.

...I'm thinking more of Sega CD Xenobia, though. With SSS and basically "splitting" her into three characters, Xenobia I think became even less well-developed. KF

Re: Love overall.

Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 2:04 pm
by Sonic#
^ It took me playing the Sega CD version to even understand why that option could be compelling. Xenobia's love for Ghaleon in SSSC feels like it's out of some conventional villain-positioning, where the top villainness [sic] is in love with the top villain but (because dudes are busy) her devotion is more directly expressed.
Image

Some NPC dialogue does go into more depth IIRC, touching on the relation to Ghaleon helping the Vile Tribe and so on. One fairy does point out that Ghaleon seems to love (or at least "enjoy") Xenobia too:
Image

But it's hard to judge whether or how fast Ghaleon is moving past Xenobia. A lot of the faeries seem to observe that Ghaleon has been changing lately, or that his values are under contradiction. (Love faeries... but imprison them?)

Re: Re:

Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 6:31 am
by Shinto-Cetra
Kizyr wrote:
Shinto-Cetra wrote:
osirus wrote:i voted whith challeon and xenobia

Ancient post, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one. Counting that one fanart I found on another site years ago not by me, the GhalXen shippers now number 3!

I don't mind reviving this topic to explore this a bit further, 'cause I don't think it's talked about all that often...

Ghaleon-Xenobia was always... really tragic to me. You had Xenobia really wanting to uplift the Vile Tribe (albeit in a way that was at the expense of everyone else on Lunar) and seeing in Ghaleon someone who seemingly truly cared about the Vile Tribe to the same extent. And then when he turned towards being concerned first and foremost with himself, she still held onto that love for him. ...without getting too much into detail, that's the main thing I saw in their relationship, so it still elicits some sympathy for me, even though (as a character) I really didn't like Xenobia all that much.

...I'm thinking more of Sega CD Xenobia, though. With SSS and basically "splitting" her into three characters, Xenobia I think became even less well-developed. KF


Agreed, it doesn't get talked about nearly enough, and it makes much more sense on TSS, and TSS only Xeobia>>>Vile sisters in every version afterwards. I see it as open to interpretation: one one hand, the quote that Sonic posted "But Ghaleon must see something in her...he seems to enjoy her company!" is also in TSS, and it actually makes sense there, as he's not enslaving her Tribe, and it is never stated he's using her/the Vile Tribe. If you just go by TSS, it's vague, but there is some connection, it could just be anything from they get along and hooked up once or twice, or maybe they have a deeper connection. It isn't really tragic here.

Things get tricky when you factor in Childhood's End: Phacia is in flashbacks. But this does not necessarily make it out of the TSS canon; a possibility is it could be interpreted as in canon if you consider that Phacia existed in TSS, but was some kind of contentious objector to Ghaleon and Xenobia's war, she and some of her like minded kin were exiled before the game begins, and therefore went free into Lunar after the others were defeated. Key word is "possibility" I'm not endorsing this theory 100%. In CE, Xenobia states, "Ghaleon-sama's heart always held dear only one person...a human male[Dyne]...eventually even I just became a substitute." I do find it interesting that she calls herself a "substitute" which again implies some connection, though not the deepest one. But at the end his ghost carries her into the light, which shows that they are together at the end. Here it is tragic, aside from the ending.

Basically, the way I see Ghaleon/Xenobia in TSS only (keep in mind this paragraph is largely headcanon) is kind of like a fusion of Sensui/Itsuki from YuYu Hakusho, with overtones of Char Aznable (on Ghaleon's part) from Gundam. Ghaleon came to the frontier in a time of need, and she helped him through his grief over Dyne, exposing him to the status of the Frontier Vile Tribe, and corrupting him a bit in the process (this is the Sensui/Itsuki part, just replace Demons with Vile Tribe.) IHe may have felt it was his "destiny" of sorts to take on the the role of a Vile Tribe leader, he is after all the last of the Vane Vile Tribe. But like Char with Zeon and Lalah, it wasn't just ideological, it was also personal, with Ghaleon wanting revenge for Dyne. I don't ship Ghaleon/Dyne romantically, but I do acknowledge it's also quite viable, especially with the Myght's rooftop scene (TSS only.) Aside from how fabulous they both are( :D ), one reason I like the Ghaeon/Xenobia pairing is that they're both bad, but not out to backstab one another (again TSS.) Around this time villains saying things like "You defeated my underling, Pah! I'm better than that weakling anyway" were so common in media (eg in FF4 Cagnazzo openly mocks Scarmiglione who the party earlier defeated.) So on top of the fact that Dyne never actually joins Ghaleon, the fact it's not ever stated in TSS that either Ghaleon or Xenobia are using each other, but they "have really hit off" (TSS quote) is why I like them. Also I never felt much for Lucia/Hiro, and while I do like Alex/Luna (remake moreso), it is questionable to me cause of the fact that they grew up together under the same roof. Mauri/Ronfar is pretty sweet though, as is Mia/Nash (more so on TSS, though Mia's "YOU IDIOT!" scene in the remake is hilarious.)