Love overall.

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Best Overall Love Team

Alex&Luna
22
35%
Kyle&Jessica
5
8%
Nash&Mia
2
3%
Dyne&Althena
1
2%
Ghaleon&Dark Althena
1
2%
Ghaleon&Xenobia
2
3%
Hiro&Lucia
12
19%
Ronfar&Mauri
6
10%
Nall&Ruby
3
5%
Ramus&Lemina
0
No votes
Zophar&Zophar
8
13%
Jian&Lucia
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 62
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Postby Werefrog » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:00 am

Kizyr wrote:Where are you getting "pursuit implies flight"? That doesn't even make sense.


I believe she's getting this from the concept of pursuing prey. And I'm guessing that's indeed how the usage that B_G is using originally came about through analogy

However, I don't find pursue to be offensive. Maybe if I were a women, it would be something different since in our society women are generally thought to be the "pursued" rather than the "pursuer." And I admit that the term "pursue" does seem to make the woman's role a passive one. The same could be said about the term "chasing girls" which almost always has a negative connotation. A pursuit just doesn't seem to be mutual. I say "court" a lot, but that's really old-fashioned.

I mean, yes, these terms are used innocently in our everyday lives. However, sometimes words have connections that we don't even think about because they're just so commonplace.

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Postby ilovemyguitar » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:04 am

Alunissage wrote:And why should Hiro pursue anyone at all? Is there any reason to assume that he must hook up with some person? The implication here is that if the two females who are interested in him are unsuitable (Ruby and Lucia), then naturally he should find some second choice, because he couldn't possibly just go his merry way. No, let's select a nearby female and say he should chase after her, because of course she couldn't be happy with a single life if there's an alternative either.


Why shouldn't Hiro pursue anyone at all? Is there any reason why he must remain single if he isn't with Lucia?

And frankly, I think it's demeaning to Jean's character to say that a romantic relationship would discount the rest of her growth throughout the story.

And yes, Kiz, I realize that Hiro and Jean's characters aren't really suited for each other. But it's a work of fiction, and either character could have been tweaked from a narrative structure to a point where their personalities are more compatible in a romantic sense.
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:15 am

1) Phyco, can you think of a reason why anyone should want to answer someone whose clearly stated agenda is to offend?

Nevertheless, of the goodness of my heart, I'll briefly address the other two.

2) What have I said that is sexist? Specifically, what in any way approaches the level of "women only want men for their money"? I used gendered pronouns because we were talking about specific characters, but what is sexist about any of it? But if you really want sexism, think about how the idea of a man chasing a woman is different from the idea of a woman chasing a man, just for starters.

3) Whether or not most relationships involving someone looking for a relationship, it's still not all of them. Mine didn't start like that.

Kizyr's last paragraph is basically what I was getting at. This whole discussion started with the assertion that with Lucia and Ruby being unsuitable for Hiro, he should pursue Jean -- that is, someone who wouldn't be first choice.

What I mean by pursuit implies flight is that "pursue" is, as Phyco's dictionary quote indicated, a verb which take an object: the object of pursuit, the pursued. In contexts where the object of pursuit is a person, it's not uncommon for that person to be fleeing the pursuer. Granted, I wouldn't normally say that the verb always means this in terms of a potential relationship, but the context in which it was brought up -- that Jean would be the second or third choice -- suggests that she would not be enthusiastic about being pursued. How receptive would you be in that situation? "She's going to outlive me, and the other one isn't my kind, so I 'm going after you."

When previewing this, I saw that Werefrog and ILMG have posted since I started writing, so some of it may be redundant. Not up to rewriting the whole thing, so I'll just add that I'm a bit befuddled about ILMG's comment that "it's demeaning to Jean's character to say that a romantic relationship would discount the rest of her growth throughout the story", because I don't see where that comes in at all.

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Postby phyco126 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:36 am

Alunissage wrote:(1) Phyco, can you think of a reason why anyone should want to answer someone whose clearly stated agenda is to offend?

(2) What have I said that is sexist? Specifically, what in any way approaches the level of "women only want men for their money"? I used gendered pronouns because we were talking about specific characters, but what is sexist about any of it?

(3) But if you really want sexism, think about how the idea of a man chasing a woman is different from the idea of a woman chasing a man, just for starters.

(4) Whether or not most relationships involving someone looking for a relationship, it's still not all of them. Mine didn't start like that.

(5) How receptive would you be in that situation? "She's going to outlive me, and the other one isn't my kind, so I 'm going after you."


1. Sure. To make the offender look really stupid. Internet Darwinism 101, when someone offends you, just make them look stupid. I'm just doing my part to ensure the advancement of evolution, so I had to make a sacrifice. Myself looked good.

2. You where saying that it is offensive to pursue a woman because it objectifies her, makes her an item, or as you put it "Female-shaped doll there for the taking." That right there, implies that when a man persues a women, he is just doing so to get in her pants and take her home as a new play thing with holes. That to me, is sexist, because it's generalizing all men, when not all men are like that. Some pursue a relationship with a girl because he generally cares for her and wants to be there for her, to support her, to take care of her, etc etc etc. So in response, I generalized all women saying they will never stay with a guy if he doesn't have money.

3. That it would make my life a heck of a lot easier in trying to tell who is intrested in me?

4. Yes, and I gave an example about that, right? It happens, but a vast portion of relationships are still planned.

5. Sorry, I don't see the big deal. There are girls I am in love with, girls that I want to be with. I'm not going to spend all of my life with some hope that me and her will ever get together, so you move on. Hiro would be moving on, he can't be with either (though why would he want to be with Ruby anyway? Isn't it only Ruby who wants to be with Hiro?) so why stay and pin after a demi/full goddess until you die when you may pursue your feelings for someone else?

Just because I choose a girl that's say, 3rd on the succession list of love, doesn't mean I love her any less than any of the other girls above her.
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:00 am

Phyco, I said "female-shaped doll" because we're talking about Hiro and Jean. Hiro's shown no evidence of being anything but heterosexual. It's far more common for women to be treated as objects in that way than men, though... is making that observation sexist, or realistic?

My point about the chasing/being chased thing is that when a woman is said to be chasing a man it's meant as an insult or put-down, while if a man is said to be chasing a woman it's normal. The thrill of the chase and all that. Again, I'm not saying that's how things should be, but how they are.

I think you're probably in the minority in saying that being with someone who is your third choice doesn't mean that you care for that person any less than you would for your first choice. Or rather, while you may feel that way, she won't necessarily feel comfortable with it. It can seriously hurt a relationship. A relative of mine carried around the photo of the girl who refused his proposal for a good 25 years after he married the second one he asked... his wife said that things might've been different, and happier, if he'd thrown it out earlier.

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Postby DezoPenguin » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:12 am

Yeesh, walk away from the computer for a few hours and several different conversations pop up.

Well, let's take 'em one at a time:

1) I'm not quite sure why the word "pursue" offends here. I mean, people of both sexes routinely pursue objects of attraction without a thought or intention of the end result, whether romantic, sexual, or both, being anything but consensual. I mean, if nothing else, someone has to go ahead and ask the other person out on that first date. Though in terms of EB, I'd suggest that "pursue" is particuarly apropos to Hiro. Lucia literally--physically--ran away (to another world, for Althena's sake), and he went after her.

2) Alun, why is it you particularly dislike Hiro? Is it because he falls "in love" with a girl at (literally) first sight, based entirely on physical attraction ('cause, not only does he not know anything about her at that point, but because she doesn't actually have a human-interactive personality at all at that stage?).

(Though as a side note, I'd argue that love at first sight is impossible because of precisely that. You can't feel "love" when you have no idea what a person is like; you can only feel an infatuation based upon appearance and upon your idea of what a person with the presented cues would be like. That's not to say that such infatuation can't later develop into love--hence the number of people who genuinely believe that they did fall in love at first sight--just that at that "Lucia just appeared in the room" stage, it's impossible for True Love to exist. Not that this has stopped any number of fairy tales, poems, and novels from maintaining that that kind of instant connection exists. Indeed, I'd argue that the entire concept of "soul mates"--as especially popularized by the romance novel as well as, less so, in the fantasy genre--is a literary shortcut to justify that kind of instantaneous emotional connection as well as being a fantasy that a relationship can magically happen without all the hard emotional work that goes into having one.)

3) The entire debate of whether Hiro should pursue anyone else is kind of irrelevant from the point of view of his character, as Kizyr pointed out. He wouldn't at that point. But, if it proved impossible to get back to the Blue Star (or, for that matter, if he got there and Lucia's response wasn't "Hiro!" *happy smile* *hug* but "Hey, I said no and I meant it; go home, tattoo-face!") you'd expect that at some point in his life he'd move on and seek romance instead of pining for his lost love forever.

4) Obviously, the concept of whether character A is attracted to character B without them actually coming out and saying "I like Character B" is a highly subjective one. Lynne and I both thought Jean had a crush on Hiro, and neither one of us saw any sign that Leo had any romantic thoughts towards anyone else at all. Others clearly have different opinions. I would note, however, that the fact that one such suggestion of Jean's feelings was a WD localization change doesn't alter the fact that it's there. I mean, seriously, I just learned that when I read it a few hours ago in Kizyr's thread.

5) As for the assumption that the lead character in a fantasy RPG would end up paired up with someone, it's pretty darned common generally, but let's also not forget that we're talking about Lunar here, where love isn't just a subplot but a major thematic force (Alex-Luna, Jessica-Kyle, Mia-Nash, Tempest-Fresca, Hiro-Lucia, Ronfar-Mauri, Borgan-Miria, possibly Ruby-Nall, hopefully not Lemina-Ramus*. Heck, my personal--only!--take on why the Jean-Leo pairing seems attractive is because they're the only PCs left over in both games that haven't had a romantic leaning if not a genuine romance towards someone.

*(My whole reaction to Lemina/Ramus is a giant case of yuck. I mean--betting that she'll marry him? And when she didn't even actually agree to the terms in advance? To say nothing of the comment by one of the Meribians that every man in the Ramus family basically buys their wife? I really want to see Lemina shove a Hellfire Staff into one of Ramus' convenient bodily orifices and activate it.**)

**(You know, given that I have that same exact reaction to every character in every novel, anime, manga, movie, or TV show who basically nags, claims, and stalks an object of affection until they, usually she, gives in, I'm really beginning to understand why Alun objects to the word "pursue." Man, some of those romance novel "heroes" ought to be shoved into a wood chipper by the heroine.)

6) If I had a 6, I've gotten way too sidetracked to remember it. Oh, yeah, the "demeaning to Jean" bit...when I first read that line I thought it was a reference to one of Alun's posts, but it was actually Hiro she was talking about. Though if Hiro's mental processes actually were, "Well, let's see...I really like Lucia, but she's immortal and I don't want to saddle her with having to watch me age and die...and Ruby liked me and we've been together forever, but she's a different species so that's not cool...I guess I'll have to ask Jean out; gotta hook up with somebody, right?" then it would be pretty damn demeaning...

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Postby phyco126 » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:36 am

Alunissage wrote:(1)It's far more common for women to be treated as objects in that way than men, though... is making that observation sexist, or realistic?

(2)A relative of mine carried around the photo of the girl who refused his proposal for a good 25 years after he married the second one he asked... his wife said that things might've been different, and happier, if he'd thrown it out earlier.


1. Okay, then me saying that women only want a guy who has money, is that sexist or realistic? Remember my post way back late laster year/early this year about if a girl would date a guy who has no money, the general answer was, no. So that, to me, makes it a pretty realistic observation.

2. Huh, I don't understand why that would be an issue. If he loved her, then his feelings for her isn't going to change. People need to stop and think "Hey, if I loved someone tis much, would I be able to just tuck them out of my life and forget about them?" Well, maybe some people can, I know I can't. I still think about the girl I loved when I was in middle school and high school. I still have letters from her, though at least I stopped looking at them. I still have fierce physical pains in my heart from another girl I loved, whenever I think about her. I still get depressed when I think of another girl I am in love with, even though I already have a girlfriend. I love my girlfriend, I do, but those feelings for someone else are still there, and will always be there.
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Postby ilovemyguitar » Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:50 am

Just to clarify what I meant about Jean's character being demeaned:

I'm pretty sure the point of the post that instigated this was implying that Hiro should have pursued Jean instead of Lucia, not that Hiro should make a pass at Jean when things with Lucia didn't work out. I didn't realize that Alun had interpreted that initial post differently, so it seemed to me that she was saying that Jean should remain single because if she was in a romantic plotline she would be reduced to arm candy. To me, this seemed unfair because Jean is a great character with layers and personality, and the implication here seemed to be that all that would be irrelevant if she was in a relationship. Of course, now that Alun's clarified herself I realize that this isn't what she meant.
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:07 am

I actually like Ramus and Lemina better as a couple than Lucia and Hiro, and definitely better than Miria and Borgan. At least they have something in common, the goal of restoring their families' fortunes. And her interest in money might make it possible for her to put up with the bunny girls in the sewers.

Leo and Jean seem a better match to me in that, again, they have things in common that they don't with the others. They are both trying to come to terms with a past of being controlled and deceived, and seeking to make amends. Leo is an honorable man and not likely to try to take advantage of Jean, which she's had enough of in her life, so she may be able to allow herself to trust him. He's also a grown-up, unlike Hiro. :P But... that's IF they want or feel ready for a relationship, not because of course they should be in one. As scarred as both are from their pasts they might never be ready. I admit that when I first played EBC I was somewhat hoping that Leo and Jean would be a couple at the end ot it, but later I changed my mind about this, because it doesn't really fit with where either character is by the end of the game. Especially Leo as he wreaks havoc while trying to work out how to serve Justice. But I still think they're more suited to each other than they are to any of the other characters.

(Hiro annoys me in part because of the instant willingness to do anything for Lucia simply because "she's the most beautiful girl I've ever seen", without considering, say, that Leo might be correct in identifying her as a Destroyer. In EB he eagerly participates in spying on her costume change, although this was different in the remake. And, of course, he's the quintessential clueless clod when he interrupts Lucia's brief moment of relaxation on the way to Pentagulia with questions about how glad she should be about finishing her mission, forcing her back to reality from her brief escape.)

As for why the word "pursue" bothered me... again, I guess it's context. It's all too common for a single female to be seen as fair game (another hunting metaphor), whether or not she wants to be pursued. An attractive woman who remains single is "a waste". Or a challenge.

Phyco, I really don't remember the thread you mention offhand, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have said that a woman wouldn't date a man with no money. So I take your repeated comments of this rather personally, and still find them to be a rather different thing from what I was saying.

And yes, people retain feelings for past loves. But you have to realize, if you haven't already, that that sort of thing is really miserable for the person you do end up with. Not only the feeling of constantly being compared, but the fear that if the first-choice person became available your own relationship would be immediately terminated in favor of the other -- or at the very least it would suffer a strain.

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Postby Benevolent_Ghaleon » Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:58 pm

i really need to watch my wording, don't i? sexism is really becoming a tired subject around here.

i think Jean is the best of the lunar 2 females. i would've been more amused had he ended up with her. that'll let you know that i'm not viewing it as a second best situation. what i'm about to say is simply a justification. i see a logical flaw with Lucia and with Ruby. perhaps Hiro would like kids? lucia LOOKS human but isn't and Ruby could possibly end up on that level. are the genetically matchable?

when i said pursue i didn't mean that Hiro should chase Jean with his pants around his ankles. I just mean that a relationship with her is more realistic because she's human and also pretty awesome. Ruby is obnoxious and Lucia was oblivious.

Hiro peeping doesn't mean he's a rapist either. it isn't like he got those tattoos in jail while he was doing time for forcing himself on someone.

alun also said something about what i said implying that Jean couldn't be happy alone. yeah because every woman to be in a relationship is a fully dependant person who could never stand on their own two feet, right?


and phyco, if i wanted to go the offensive route, i would've just said Hiro should've boned all of the girls he's attracted to. in their order of physical attractiveness in the order of least to greatest. this puts Jean last.

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Postby Sonic# » Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:54 pm

phyco126 wrote:
Alunissage wrote:(1)It's far more common for women to be treated as objects in that way than men, though... is making that observation sexist, or realistic?

(2)A relative of mine carried around the photo of the girl who refused his proposal for a good 25 years after he married the second one he asked... his wife said that things might've been different, and happier, if he'd thrown it out earlier.


1. Okay, then me saying that women only want a guy who has money, is that sexist or realistic? Remember my post way back late laster year/early this year about if a girl would date a guy who has no money, the general answer was, no. So that, to me, makes it a pretty realistic observation.

2. Huh, I don't understand why that would be an issue. If he loved her, then his feelings for her isn't going to change. People need to stop and think "Hey, if I loved someone tis much, would I be able to just tuck them out of my life and forget about them?" Well, maybe some people can, I know I can't. I still think about the girl I loved when I was in middle school and high school. I still have letters from her, though at least I stopped looking at them. I still have fierce physical pains in my heart from another girl I loved, whenever I think about her. I still get depressed when I think of another girl I am in love with, even though I already have a girlfriend. I love my girlfriend, I do, but those feelings for someone else are still there, and will always be there.


1) http://www.lunarthreads.com/viewtopic.p ... 19&start=0

I typed a lot more before, but lost it. I'd reread the post for details, but the results are, in a split of conceivably (yes+depends), no, and other, it's 16-5-2. Hardly a general claim.

I would say your views are sexist. Not malicious. But biased. I seem to recall a lot of back-and-forth going on in the thread, with people saying that it would depend on ambition and motivation.

2) In our monamorous society (one romantic love), we quickly grow jealous of other love interests. I carried around a few pictures of some friends in my pocket. Female ones. Sometimes ones I had liked at one time or another, and that I'm now comfortably friends with or very occasional e-penpals. I don't get to see them often. I had "let go", but the pictures still remained in there. I didn't see it as a big deal. Then I wisened up some and put them away.

But on the flip side, what if I found a picture of another guy on my girlfriend's person? I'd be distraught! Of course, I'd trust her if she said it was a friend or something, but still! We associate too much with the keeping of a picture around; it implies sentiment, even if it doesn't mean that to us. We get jealous.

And in your case, it's fine to think fondly on girls from the past. Just don't let her feel like you're judging her on that standard. And never, ever make it seem like you're with her because you couldn't have been with them in the past.
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Postby AnimeJei » Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:53 pm

It's only normal to sometimes compare your current gf with ones from the past, but of course not fair. I did the same, I have many letters, cards, gifts from previous relationships. I think it's okay to hold onto them, because despite what happened they were a part of my life at some point. So even if I threw that stuff away it wouldn't change the fact and sometimes it nice to read old letters as long as it doesn't depress you. If it does make you linger on the past them it is a good idea to get rid of that stuff. I remember I was so stupid and childish that after a breakup I would hate going to a restaurant, store, or whatever that we frequent at. Anyway, I keep a ring from my previous gf and I have always been open with my new gf and told her about such things. If she is not fine with it she will leave me or tell me about.
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:06 pm

I don't think it's childish to want to avoid places you associate with now-painful memories. Not everyone has those kind of strong associations, but a lot of people do; it seems to be one of those personality types that people are or aren't. There's such a thing as taking it too far, of course, but it's not an unreasonable reaction in itself while you are still recovering. And it IS a good idea to have compassion and realize that even though in your head it may be entirely obvious and logical that you're with the person you're with because you want to be and not because you couldn't get someone else, that person, not being inside your head, will not unreasonably have some concerns, and reinforcing these by treasuring photos, etc., is just asking for trouble.

Sexism itself is tired -- because it's all-pervasive. Complaining about someone bringing it up is shooting the messenger.

Not all of my comments were about or to you, B_G; indeed, few were. A lot of it, including my comments on why I don't like Hiro much, were in response to Darrell's post and don't involve you at all, so your hyperbole in putting words I didn't say into my mouth is completely uncalled-for. It's really frequent around here that a discussion takes off at a bit of an angle to the original post producing it. Some of my comments, perhaps even most of them, were based on a reading that was probably mistaken, but that doesn't make the rest of the conversation invalid.

Why do you think it adds anything to demonstrate that you can in fact be more offensive deliberately than you already are?

To respond to the actual content of your post, I agree regarding Lucia and Ruby not being great matches for Hiro. I don't think he's a great match for Jean either, though; she's much more grown-up than he, while he's a happy-go-lucky person with no tragedy to mature him. While a relationship with Jean might be more realistic for Hiro, a relationship with Hiro would not be very realistic for Jean (IMO, obviously) at the ages and stages they're at in the game. It'd be a step down, so to speak -- indeed, one could make a "tired" comment about the equally tired sexism of the smart, capable, and yes, attractive female marrying a doofus that we see so often in sitcoms, although Hiro isn't quite so dumb as to try to chase anyone with his pants around his ankles. He has other less direct means of falling on his face.

(Freakin' obvious disclaimer: that last bit was tongue-in-cheek. I do not think that Hiro is that bad, just that he's too young for a realistic, balanced relationship with Jean. In that sense Lucia might actually be a better choice.)

(Less obvious disclaimer: I am not talking about literal age. My husband is six years younger than I am.)

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Postby DezoPenguin » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:36 am

Alunissage wrote: I don't think he's a great match for Jean either, though; she's much more grown-up than he, while he's a happy-go-lucky person with no tragedy to mature him.

*snip*

(Freakin' obvious disclaimer: that last bit was tongue-in-cheek. I do not think that Hiro is that bad, just that he's too young for a realistic, balanced relationship with Jean. In that sense Lucia might actually be a better choice.)



You know, it just hit me...y'know, what, eleven years after first playing EB...thanks to your comment about "no tragedy to mature him."

Hiro's dominant quality is innocence.

If you think about it, it's all in his introductory speech when he's running around the Dragon Ruins with Ruby. He's the kind of guy who believes in his heart of hearts that Love Conquers All, that Good defeats Evil, that if you just hope hard enough and try with all your might that you'll come out on top no matter the odds. He's never been smacked down by life, and when life comes up at him to do said smacking in the form of a major, world-destroying, evil deity...he refuses to be smacked.

Moreover, during the course of his adventure, he meets up in turn with Ronfar (the priest who failed to save his true love and so lost faith), Jean (the abused child running from the brutality of her past), Lemina (the heir to a heritage that she's desperately trying to recapture and, thus far, has met with relentless failure in doing so), and Leo (the true believer in Justice who's been manipulated to serve evil), and leads them all to recapture their own innocent faith. I mean, it's no surprise that the five of them are speaking in sentence fragments when they recapture their strength (and MP) against Ghaleon--the entire speech might just as well have come out of Hiro's mouth.

So, if you think about it, of course Hiro would fall for Lucia at first sight and immediately ascribe all kind of positive qualities to her that she didn't then possess (heck, the fact that, over the course of the game, Lucia actually developed into the woman Hiro believed she was from the start is just one more example of how Hiro's worldview seems to, essentially, inflict itself on his surroundings.

I'm not sure if that makes me like him any more or less, but...weird stuff, when you start thinking about it.

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Postby phyco126 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:48 am

Oh boy, where to start.

B_G, what? I don't understand where your comment about being offensive comes into play to be directed at me.

Sonic#: I was just trying to make a point about generalizing men. I actually would like to get together with some Psycology professors to help me set up a more scientific survey or women going where the money is, including whether or not she would stick with a guy with no money but who is also trying really hard to make life better.

Alunissage: Compare your current girl with one that you love but can't have? O_o I don't do that, every girl is different, and obviously if I like this girl and that girl and this girl, then they likely share much of the same things that I find attractive, or evidently unique things that stand them apart from each other. Therefore it would really be pointless to compare them together.

Sonic# (again): If my girlfriend had a picture of a guy, then yes, I will feel some jealousness, but not enough to hurt my relationship with her.

Alunissage (Again): I have often thought about what would happen if a girl that I loved with every fiber in my being came back to me and wanted to be with me forever, no matter what, while I was in a relationship already. Very hard thinking, not as simple as "I'll simply tell her I am in a relationship sorry." You have to examine what feeling and emotions you would go through. Would you stay loyal to your current girl? If you and the current girl broke up, would you immediately go out with the girl you love? It's all more complicated than most realize.

Though the consensus is no, I wouldn't. I'm loyal, and I would remain in my current relationship. So hopefully, my girl would trust me at that, though I could understand that fear. As for straining a relationship, sure, it would certainly happen with me. Having to make a choice would be heartbreaking, no matter how much you love one or the other. I could be very happy, living a great and wonderful life with my girl, and I would still be heart broken for having to choose. That in itself would likely strain the relationship.

Still, keeping sentimental stuff or not isn't going to change those feelings.
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Postby Alunissage » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:45 am

Darrell -- that's a great point and analysis of Hiro. Although he experiences pain when Lucia gets captured by Zophar, he remains the cheerleader of the group, rather than becoming discouraged. And his optimism is borne out... right up to when he completely falls for Lucia's wish to go back to where they met. His personal tragedy is, of course, then: not simply because of losing Lucia but of having proof that there isn't always a happily ever after. That's probably the bigger shock to him, really.

(And naturally he refuses to accept it and goes on to decide he knows what's best for Lucia by finding a way to interrupt her at work AGAIN. :P He can't believe that there might be things more important than love -- or more important than him. I was about to give him credit for character growth but his failure to leave her alone speaks against that.)

Phyco, it sounds like you want a scientific study to confirm your bias rather than to find out what actually is the case.

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Postby Benevolent_Ghaleon » Fri Nov 02, 2007 6:56 am

what the hell IS she doing? does she need to be in the crystal or is she just resting in there since its boring to walk around all the time? i always figured she was just guarding the place.

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Postby Kizyr » Fri Nov 02, 2007 1:58 pm

Alunissage wrote:(And naturally he refuses to accept it and goes on to decide he knows what's best for Lucia by finding a way to interrupt her at work AGAIN. :P He can't believe that there might be things more important than love -- or more important than him. I was about to give him credit for character growth but his failure to leave her alone speaks against that.)

Ok, considering that Hiro pretty much received a message directly from Althena telling him not to give up on Lucia, show her the meaning of love, and all that, there really was no choice but to find a way to the Blue Star.

Also, EBC's ending sequence implies a connection between Lucia's happiness (which really she's only going to feel with Hiro, just like Hiro's happiness is dependent on being with Lucia) and the resurrection of the Blue Star.

Love's always been the driving force behind Lunar. Why is it so odd that a lot of things that occur are dependent on love? Hiro didn't just go up to the Blue Star for himself--he did so for Lucia as well. It was far from selfish. I'm really starting to think your personal bias against Hiro is affecting how much you can view the events objectively. KF

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Postby phyco126 » Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:32 pm

Alunissage wrote:Phyco, it sounds like you want a scientific study to confirm your bias rather than to find out what actually is the case.


Well, what is science? Science is the study of how things work and what-not. I want to see how women work in that aspect. Besides, a scientific study can shut me up or proove me right. I'm sure we wouldn't have some of the best ideas and concepts, even medical and technological, if no one wanted to find the truth behind their bias.
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Postby DezoPenguin » Fri Nov 02, 2007 5:10 pm

Alunissage wrote:(And naturally he refuses to accept it and goes on to decide he knows what's best for Lucia by finding a way to interrupt her at work AGAIN. :P He can't believe that there might be things more important than love -- or more important than him. I was about to give him credit for character growth but his failure to leave her alone speaks against that.)


Well--given that her response to him showing up was to smile hugely, scream his name, and jump towards him with arms wide like a fangirl about to glomp someone, I think she thought he made the right choice.

Honestly, though, I agree that Hiro did not display character growth. On the contrary, if you look at it, I think the game seems to suggest that everyone around him needs to grow up into Hiro.

Consider Noah's fatherly advice to Alex in SSSC (I'm paraphrasing; someone can look up the precise quote if they have a save point right after Luna gets kidnapped):

"Someone who chooses duty over love isn't a hero; he's a coward and a fool." (male pronoun presumably 'cause it's father-to-son advice)

That one sentence has always summed up Lunar for me. Love Uber Alles.

If you think about it, the end of SSSC is basically the same as EB. The girl chooses to go off and do her job as a Goddess, and the boy says, "Heck with it; we're in love and I'm not losing you." Althena wanted to slowly regulate the flow of magic back into Lunar to prevent it from going kablooey, but Alex wouldn't hear of it (and, one might notice, he was also right--the world came out fine).

One might even opine that it was this experience that caused Althena to leave instructions for Hiro in the note Kizyr mentions. She "learned" (quotes because I'm not sure it's a good lesson to be learning from a real-world perspective) that being alone on the Blue Star wasn't what Lucia needed, and so entrusted to Hiro her hope that Lucia, too, could learn to love...


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