Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

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Who is your least favorite Character in Lunar, and why?

Poll ended at Sat Feb 19, 2011 5:47 am

Althena
0
No votes
Alex
0
No votes
Nall
0
No votes
Quark
0
No votes
Luna
0
No votes
Ramus
0
No votes
Kyle
0
No votes
Jessica
0
No votes
Nash
4
21%
Mia
0
No votes
Tempest
1
5%
Fresca
0
No votes
Xenobia
0
No votes
Royce
4
21%
Phacia
0
No votes
Laike/Dyne
0
No votes
Lemia
0
No votes
Ghaleon/Magic Emperor
0
No votes
Dragonmaster Zoc
0
No votes
Dross
0
No votes
Mel
0
No votes
Hiro
0
No votes
Ruby
0
No votes
Gwyn
0
No votes
Lucia
1
5%
Ronfar
0
No votes
Leo
0
No votes
Lemia
0
No votes
Jean
0
No votes
Nall (Lunar 2)
0
No votes
Dragonmaster Ghaleon
0
No votes
Mauri
0
No votes
Lunn
4
21%
Borgan
3
16%
Fake Althena
1
5%
Zophar
0
No votes
Star Dragon
1
5%
Blue Dragon
0
No votes
Black Dragon
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 19
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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Leoriosan wrote:Pretty much all the attempts to make Kyle look cool and heroic came off as forced. It doesn't help that he literally feels tacked onto the story as a love interest for Jessica, moreso in the Sega CD version. I suppose we're supposed to think he's cool and funny, but I've always found him to be really obnoxious and out-of-place with the rest of the party. He doesn't have any adult figures he looks up to like the rest of the group.

Eh, he respects Mel in TSS, and it's mutual -- Mel placed him in charge of the Nanza barrier because he trusted Kyle. (Why Mel, governor of Meribia, would have an interest in access to the rest of the continent is unclear.) That was one of several personality and backstory changes I disliked in the remake. It kind of fit with their personalities -- Kyle's a jumped-up bandit, Mel's a jumped-up pirate. I'd be surprised if TSS Mel didn't already have an eye on Kyle as a potential match for Jessica, given that he doesn't want "wimpy accountant types" for her.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby ShugoHanasaki » Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:01 pm

"Lunn had some mental issues" lol!
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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby AkagisWhiteComet » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:28 pm

I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I'm pretty sure that in the novel (right?) for LUNAR TSS Kyle was given a more prominent role and appears to the 'party' much earlier on. I want to say he was some sort of pirate, which would reinforce Mel's acceptance of him and vise versa as they would have came up from a similar background.

Kyle never had much of a development character-wise in the story in seemingly any of it's iterations which is really unfortunate. I think the developers learned their lesson with EB, but considering how many remakes TSS went through I never really understood that Kyle's story wasn't elaborated on when other characters with a seemingly much smaller role or engagement were either expanded upon or revamped. It also really relegates his character to a mere "muscle" type.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:00 am

I should be able to tell you about his role in the novel, but I can't... I read some of it in translation and the style got to me a bit and I had to stop. (I think it's the original writing, not the translation, that got to me; I doubt the translator put in adjectives that weren't there.)

I know there's a bit more about Kyle in some sources. Pretty sure there's a bit of a flashback in Lunar Legend where Kyle and Jessica are at a dock as kids and Kyle says he'll hurt anyone who makes her cry, or words to that effect. And I know I read some backstory somewhere about kid-Jessica sneaking out and pretending to be a boy and becoming friends or rivals with Kyle. One night Kyle snuck into the mansion and was surprised to find his friend was there. I think he also peed on Mel on that trip... drat, where is all this? The novel? An interview?

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Sonic# » Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:04 pm

^ I really hope there's a source for that. Like, peeing on Mel? Is that juvenile writing or a fairly plausible thing for a rascal kid to do?

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:
Kyle never had much of a development character-wise in the story in seemingly any of it's iterations which is really unfortunate.


My own disclaimer: as an English teacher and scholar, I spend a lot of time paying attention to characters who are own fleshed out in bits and pieces and arguing how they're more nuanced than a lot of readers notice.

In short, I think Kyle gets a fair amount of development. A lot of this is going from memories of my previous playthrough of SSSC. I am usually struck by several things:

1. Kyle is described in a few ways before the party meets him. He may be mentioned in Meribia. Going all across the Nanza Fort searching for drunk-Kyle involves a lot of dialogue about how Kyle is as a leader and his relationship to Jessica. My general impression from that dialogue is that Kyle is a fair and respected leader who sometimes drinks too much and needs to figure out how to treat Jessica better.

2. Kyle's crossdressing scene makes him out to be inventive and charismatic, with a flair for spectacle. This is how he leads. Mentally I juxtapose that scene (imitating a woman who is treated poorly) with what women going through the Nanza Pass say about Kyle: he keeps them safe.

3. Once Kyle is recruited, the next town further develops Kyle as a kind of benevolent pirate or thief: he helps the party navigate Reza. Without him, going through the Thieves' Guild wouldn't have been easy. (Every other character is relatively more sheltered than Kyle.) It is clear he has a large network of friends and contacts and a certain amount of history, which he can use to figure out how to get the Dragon Wings back.

4. Plaster Mel has already been mentioned in-thread as somewhat contrived or hammy. That said, it does further establish how his immediate instinct is to protect Jessica. It also suggested to me that at least some of his more playful comments are a kind of spectacle or shell, a protective layer (this is going to be cheesy: like the plaster or stone) because it's hard to be vulnerable emotionally:

Image

5. To extend that reading just a bit, Kyle's treasure for Damon is a crow bar that can get into any vault. That's inventive in a material way: access to closed-off spaces is better than depicting any individual treasure. Of course that ends up being insufficient, but it shows that Kyle thinks like a thief: access through security is more important than merely imagining wealth or treasure. That also seems to align with how he conducts himself: controlling access to his more vulnerable side is necessary to be the strong man, the well-regarded thief, or (at least so he has thought) someone Jessica wants. That's how Kyle has to learn and grow - going beyond pranks and breaking into things to learn how to be (a) a leader and (b) a good person to his friends.

6. This is what he's working through when he sings: he has to give an excuse for why he's a good singer. It can't just be that he's bad. It has to be something macho, active, and hard:

Image

Admittedly, Jessica doesn't take it well either.

Image

Social and emotional walls aren't broken down in an instant, after all:

Image

7. I could go on, but that's what I see Kyle going between throughout the story, and scenes often touch on that dynamic (being the thief/leader/warrior who brushes off trouble; being open to himself and the people around him). Lots of scenes suggest that performativity, like when he seems to be getting drunk with an official in Meryod and suddenly switches gears, showing that all of that was a performance to get what he wants:

Image

And that face change!
Image

I'd go as far as to say that Kyle seems like he has less development because he's so often putting on a show, and his interesting side (as a character) comes in the moments when that breaks.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Sat Apr 14, 2018 7:42 am

Wow, I've forgotten a lot of moments from SSSC. Probably because every time I start to replay it I end up stopping somewhere in the first third, like Lann.

He's definitely highly respected as a leader in TSS. And trainer, too!

"OUR LEADER'S NAME IS KYLE.
HE'S A BIT OLDER THAN YOU,
AND REALLY STRONG. HE'S A
GOOD GUY ALL AROUND!"

"EVEN THOUGH KYLE IS STILL
YOUNG,...
MASTER MEL ENTRUSTED THIS
REGION TO HIM. IT'S A VERY
IMPORTANT JOB!"

"THE GUYS HERE ALL USED TO
BE HARDCORE THIEVES, BUT
KYLE BROUGHT THEM HERE AND
SHAPED THEM UP TO BE
PROTECTORS OF THE BARRIER!"

"OH BOSS! IT'S GOOD TO HAVE
YOU BACK HERE IN NANZA!
THEY SAY GHALEON'S GOING TO
ATTACK US ANY DAY! YOU'VE
GOT TO PROTECT US!"
(Kyle responds:)
"WHAT KIND OF WIMPS ARE YOU?
IF YOU REMEMBER ALL THAT I
TAUGHT YOU, YOU'LL BE FINE! "

"BOSS, YOU'VE GOT TO STAY
HERE AND HELP US DEFEND
NANZA AGAINST GHALEON!"
(Kyle's response:)
"I'VE TRAINED YOU FOR YEARS,
SO I KNOW YOU'RE CAPABLE
OF DEFENDING NANZA ALONE! "

And I should have pasted this bit in my reply above that bumped this thread, about Kyle respecting Mel.
"WHEN KYLE HEARD THAT MASTER
MEL WAS TURNED TO STONE, HE
WENT SOMEWHERE TO BE ALONE.
HE REALLY LOOKED UP TO
MASTER MEL. DID YOU KNOW MEL
GAVE HIM THIS ASSIGNMENT? "

He doesn't have a connection to Reza in TSS, but it turns out that the thief that robbed them is one of Kyle's men:
"OH BOSS! I'M SORRY FOR ALL
THE TROUBLE I CAUSED YOU
IN REZA...BELIEVE ME!
IT WAS A MIXUP! I DIDN'T
KNOW IT WAS YOU THAT I
WAS RIPPING OFF! "

There's even a kid who wants to be like him. I don't remember if this is also the case in SSSC.
"SON, YOU CAN'T SAY YOU'LL
BE A THIEF!
YOU SEE, NOT ALL THIEVES
ARE AS KINDHEARTED AS
KYLE."

Oh, and back to my other point...whether or not Mel thinks Kyle and Jessica are a good match, this guy does:
"THE OTHER DAY, A CHILDHOOD
FRIEND OF OUR LEADER'S CAME
TO VISIT.
SHE WAS KIND OF A TOMBOY,
BUT WOW! WAS SHE GORGEOUS!
I THINK SHE AND KYLE LOOK
GOOD TOGETHER! "

"A PRETTY TOMBOY CAME TO
VISIT KYLE THE OTHER
DAY...
I WISH SHE HAD STAYED. SHE
WAS A GOOD INFLUENCE ON HIM! "

"HEY!
YOU'RE THE GIRL THAT
VISITED KYLE THE OTHER DAY!
HAVE YOU COME BACK TO SEE
KYLE AGAIN? <WINK>"

"I WONDER IF OUR LEADER,
KYLE, IS REALLY INTERESTED
IN JESSICA,...
OR IF HE'S JUST TOYING
WITH HER MIND? "

"SAY BOSS! HAVE YOU LOST
INTEREST IN JESSICA,
ALREADY?
ON TO GREENER
PASTURES, HMMM?"
(Kyle's response:)
"SHUT UP, YOU BRAINLESS
DUNG-BEETLE! "

"SO KYLE, HAVE YOU PUT
ANOTHER NOTCH ON YOUR
MONSTER-SLAYING POST YET?"
(Kyle's response:)
"SHUT UP, YOU OOZING PUSTULE!
THERE'S A LADY PRESENT! "

Although I don't think you can get him in your party until you already have Mia, so she could be the lady that he's referring to.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Kizyr » Sun Apr 15, 2018 3:52 am

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:I'm sure I'll be corrected on this but I'm pretty sure that in the novel (right?) for LUNAR TSS Kyle was given a more prominent role and appears to the 'party' much earlier on. I want to say he was some sort of pirate, which would reinforce Mel's acceptance of him and vise versa as they would have came up from a similar background.

Only technical thing I'll say is that the novel is really based more on SSS, not TSS, but it's still such a radical story departure that is pretty different from both. Anyway, in the novels, (a) Kyle is a pirate, and (b) Mel has wanted posters put out for him.

From my summaries/translations:
http://www.lunar-net.com/novels/sss1.php wrote:Nash notices that the "monster" is man-made by indicating what appear to be carvings on the side. So it's a ship, but it runs without wind power, and magic power is strangely absent from this area right now. Nash them remembers: this is the Dragon Steamship Reguiss! With the famed pirate on board—

[237] "Ha ha ha ha!" calls out a voice, as a man about three or four years older than Alex jumps down from the ship onto the deck of Jessica's yacht. He introduces himself as Kyle, the Pirate of Justice. Alex introduces himself, and Nash is scared. Kyle continues: his usual demand is for all the money on hand, but he'll settle for just half their silver for the time being.

http://www.lunar-net.com/novels/sss1.php wrote:"Attention:
The Pirate Kyle. Wanted for kidnapping women and plundering goods. We shall protect the city from enemies of peace like the Pirate Kyle! Be on the lookout for the Pirate Kyle on the streets at night! If you have any information regarding the Pirate Kyle, contact the Meribian Navy at once.
- Mel de Alkirk"


Alunissage wrote:I should be able to tell you about his role in the novel, but I can't... I read some of it in translation and the style got to me a bit and I had to stop. (I think it's the original writing, not the translation, that got to me; I doubt the translator put in adjectives that weren't there.)

No it's probably both. The translator did, in fact, put in a *lot* of extra adjectives and descriptions that were nowhere in the original novel. The original novel, meanwhile, had very... basic writing -- it's a "light novel" after all and so it's literally designed to be accessible to people aged 12+. I say this despite the fact that I do in fact really like the novels.

The translation though did get on my nerves a little precisely because of the amount of unnecessary detail added by the localization. I honestly think that John Sears was instructed to increase the length of the novel (directly translated without embellishment it would've been very short), hence the added descriptions, and why I really don't want to blame him for the quality as it comes off like he was under some major constraints. KF
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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Raining51 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:48 pm

Nash was a bit of a struggle, I've liked him more over time though.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby burn321 » Sat Sep 07, 2019 8:23 pm

Kizyr wrote:
burn321 wrote:Borgon was seriously lame, he had no real reason or motivation for all the crap he did! He also didn't seem like a very dedicated or even STRONG boss. At least Lunn was a little tough. Pluss... Borgon was CREEPY, his voice, the way he said things, the things he said, his obsession with Lemina's mom *shudders* blech

You played just the PSX remake, right? I ask because Borgan's difficulty in the original Sega CD version was legendary (Borgan and Zophar were the two hardest bosses of the game). Lunn by comparison was easy once you showed him the power of dance. Really his toned-down difficulty was one of the most disappointing things about the remake (although Zophar was tougher). KF


I did, I played the complete English remaster/remake for the playstation. I've been trying to find an emulator and the original Saturn version to play on my phone because I keep hearing that the original was equally as masterful, in some alternate ways that sound innovative for the time. I'm looking to f*** with that for sure. The strategy guide draws a lot of comparisons, and honestly the original sounds like a really enjoyable experience.

Side note, super funny to see KF at the end there, because those are also my initials. <3
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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Sat Oct 12, 2019 9:30 pm

Just to make sure you know, the original is the SegaCD version, not the Sega Saturn. The Saturn and PSX versions are basically identical (and the Saturn one is Japanese-only), so I want to make sure you look for the right one.

Also, please don't dodge the language censor. Just type your thing and let the censor do its job of turning it into some Lunar monster name.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby titop222 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:46 am

Ill have to give my vote to the Star Dragon. Now, its not that I hate the character, and obviously he isn't an evil character. I didn't pick Lunn or any other villain because for the most part, I liked the villains, I felt they performed their roll well. but the Star Dragon... atleast imo adding him in the post game kinda added a few holes in the story? Like, where was he during the Lunar 1 stuff where Ghaleon was capturing all the dragons and was threatening Althena? Or even in Lunar 2 when the dragons are called and the world is literary ending because of Zophar? I guess that just wasn't part of his job, but he cant exactly protect the spire and wait for the Blue Star to be ready if Lunar is destroyed/dead.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Thu Nov 07, 2019 3:42 am

I can't say that ever occurred to me. This is why I love when new people discover this forum; they come up with things we old folk might never have thought of, or last thought of a decade or two ago. ^_^

It might interest you to know that the Star Dragon shows up a couple more times in the SegaCD game, although it's not 100% clear that it's the same character. It seems pretty likely, though. The first time is as a boss out of nowhere on the Phantom Butte (the area after the Ghost Manor) called the Phantom Sentry, who challenges Lucia's presence by telling her she's not supposed to be there yet. The second time is as the Star Sentry, the boss of one of the two required epilogue dungeons that contains a Dragon Eye Jewel needed to open the Star Dragon Tower. Lucia is no longer in the party then, of course.

Nall mentions that the Star Dragon is not like the other dragons, although I don't remember if this is in both versions of Lunar 2 or just one of them (and which one, if so). Certainly the implications of the scene with the Phantom Sentry, if it is indeed the same character, is that that entity is only concerned with Lucia's presence and the return to the Blue Star, and perhaps didn't have the power to intervene with Zophar's takeover. Also, all four of the regular Dragons were essentially powerless, with their auras stolen, and it took all four of them to break into Pentagulia and get at the Goddess Tower even after their powers were restored.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Sonic# » Tue Nov 12, 2019 5:27 pm

^ Would it be plausible for the Star Dragon to be one of Lucia's dragons, rather than one of Althena's? Or, if the Star Dragon is acting not as a servant (as the Phantom Sentry) but as a keeper, for the Star Dragon to serve someone grander than both goddesses? The four dragons seem to serve the goddess and, in some way, derive their power from the goddess. If Althena's role was to protect the creation of the Silver Star, and Lucia's role was to safeguard the Blue Star, then it would make sense for her dragon (or at least the dragon that concerns itself with Lucia) to test the worth of someone who wanted to go to the Blue Star.

Checking the screenshots, I think there's a case for the Star Dragon either serving Lucia or serving a more abstract mission beyond both of them (to the point of neglecting the Silver Star when Ghaleon and then Zophar attacks it, as you point out, titop). After all, the Star Dragon taunts Ruby (the "Red Dragon") for not recognizing "one of your own," which could refer to either species (dragon) or origin (Althena/Lucia):

Image

It calls itself the "guardian of the ancient bridge that joins this world to the Blue Star.

Image

Then, when it aligns itself with protecting the gateway until the Blue Star revitalizes itself, and Hiro insists on getting to Lucia, the Star Dragon insists on a line the imperious early-game Lucia might have said: "What could she possibly require from a human being?"

Image

It is as if the Star Dragon is asking Hiro to prove the worth of what he's doing in combat.

After the battle, the dragon congratulates Hiro, as if he has just passed a trial. "You have earned passage ..."

Image

Image

The following lines tell him the path will be long and hard, but this one stuck out to me: "... find the hope that lies buried among the stars."

Image

My only hesitation to committing to the Star Dragon as a guardian for Lucia is the emphasis on the stars. It might be a mere turn of phrase, but it also feels like something bigger that hasn't been fleshed out - a reference now to both the Silver and Blue Stars, and the larger mission to make both of them live again; a reference to stars beyond those two; even a reference to a third or larger order beyond either Lucia or Althena.
Last edited by Alunissage on Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fixed broken tag
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Alunissage » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:53 pm

Haha, I remember Angelalex arguing that the Star Dragon was Lucia's dragon when he first joined here. Given how the Phantom Sentry scolds Lucia in EB, I don't know if I'd see him as being "hers" so much as that they -- dragons, Lucia, Althena -- are all part of a team. Perhaps to safeguard humanity, perhaps with ultimate loyalty to the Blue Star and efforts toward its revival (humanity being necessary to do that in some fashion, so humans being preserved are a side benefit).

Dialogue with the Phantom Sentry:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Dialogue with the Star Sentry (as he's called in battle):

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The Star Dragon dialogue is similar to the EBC screens.

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Re: Least favorite Lunar 1 or Lunar 2 character

Postby Sonic# » Wed Nov 13, 2019 5:16 pm

Given how the Phantom Sentry scolds Lucia in EB, I don't know if I'd see him as being "hers" so much as that they -- dragons, Lucia, Althena -- are all part of a team.


Yeah, I think that's closer to their relationship. Team members can disagree with one another while being committed to similar goals.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time


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