Possible 20 years in prison for owning manga? Support the C

[Alunissage]

Wow, lots to respond to. But not tonight; it's way past my bedtime. This weekend!

[Kizyr]

I'm still up for discussing/debating this! I didn't even pull out all the stops yet... KF

[LunarRaptor]

I think most of us do intend to discuss this with you, but you caught us with your VERY long post that will take a while to read and reply to at a very bad time of year. I'll probably be able to fit in a porper response on January 1st or after. I'm mostly tied up hanging out with some favorite relatives that I don't get to see much anymore or playing with my new DS games that me mum got me for Christmas right now.

[Agawa]

I might be against alcohol, and you might be against pornography on principle. But that's still no justification for allowing the law to be abused like this.

While I read the entirety of your posts, I think this is a fitting and accurate summary. I don't have to think what he's doing is right to realize that this man's rights have been violated, and that the law has been grossly abused. In addition, legal censorship for grey areas like porn and violent video games and movies is not the way to solve problems of violence and objectification of women. We have do have a responsibility, however, to discuss the effects these products have on our society and individuals.

They do nothing to address the fear that every woman must live in from the males of her species. Again, I suspect you are unaware of how great this difference between males and females is. This pretty much sums it up: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them." And guess what, that's not a biological thing; that's societal. Where do the messages that foster this situation come from? Hint: fiction has something to do with it.

This has somewhat gone past since I'm joining the discussion late, but I think it's a pretty important point. There is a pattern I have noticed when talking with my female friends. We have all come across some kind of sexual harassment in our lives, varying in degree from being addressed in a degrading manner, being touched inappropriately, to rape. True, men can experience sexual harassment, but it doesn't happen on the widespread, nearly universal level that it does to women. Women's bodies are treated by media and society as a product for the consumption of others, and sexual harassment is the outcome. If we accept media that is degrading to women in our society, we have the responsibility to think and discuss the way it fits into our daily lives.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

As disgusting as pedophilia is, the concept of getting in trouble for DRAWINGS is beyond retarded and I think certain judges who lack enough sense to realize this need to be chopped into pieces Dexter Morgan style.

Nobody is victimized by drawings and if it's true that it's a brain problem and that's where their attraction lies...shouldn't this be a bit more popularized over here so the freaks can fap to it so they'll be much less likely to molest a child?

What's next? People with catgirl hentai getting their pets taken away?

[Alunissage]

I can't believe people actually seem to think they make sense when they say that pornography of any sort prevents actual rape and abuse or makes it less likely. The capacity for self-delusion in the quest for justification is amazing. Rationalization is not rational thinking.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I can't believe people actually seem to think they make sense when they say that pornography of any sort prevents actual rape and abuse or makes it less likely. The capacity for self-delusion in the quest for justification is amazing. Rationalization is not rational thinking.

I was going on the fact that I lose interest in sex after I cum. Am I the only one or something?

I also can't help but notice that you didn't make any points as to why you're right.

[Kizyr]

I can't believe people actually seem to think they make sense when they say that pornography of any sort prevents actual rape and abuse or makes it less likely. The capacity for self-delusion in the quest for justification is amazing. Rationalization is not rational thinking.

I was going on the fact that I lose interest in sex after I cum. Am I the only one or something?
I also can't help but notice that you didn't make any points as to why you're right.

Check the "Causation and Entertainment" section of my post.

Basically, there's insufficient evidence to go either way. It's difficult to make the claim that the presence of pornography actually prevents (or decreases the occurrence of) rape. But, it's also difficult to make the claim in the other direction--that pornography encourages rape.

What you're referring to is what most men would know as "rolling over and going to sleep" (my guess is it has to do with some endorphine release; either way, self-pleasure is used as a sleep aid more often than one might think). In any case, it's really irrelevant to the point--this is about mental and psychological factors (and long-term ones, at that). KF

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I can't believe people actually seem to think they make sense when they say that pornography of any sort prevents actual rape and abuse or makes it less likely. The capacity for self-delusion in the quest for justification is amazing. Rationalization is not rational thinking.

I was going on the fact that I lose interest in sex after I cum. Am I the only one or something?
I also can't help but notice that you didn't make any points as to why you're right.

Check the "Causation and Entertainment" section of my post.

Basically, there's insufficient evidence to go either way. It's difficult to make the claim that the presence of pornography actually prevents (or decreases the occurrence of) rape. But, it's also difficult to make the claim in the other direction--that pornography encourages rape.

What you're referring to is what most men would know as "rolling over and going to sleep" (my guess is it has to do with some endorphine release; either way, self-pleasure is used as a sleep aid more often than one might think). In any case, it's really irrelevant to the point--this is about mental and psychological factors (and long-term ones, at that). KF

What I'm referring to is "Clean up and go raid the fridge and possibly play a video game". lol

The way I see it, people should be able to draw anything they want because it's just a drawing. It wouldn't matter if the kid in his manga looked exactly like Jon Bennet Ramsey.

[Alunissage]

"Make points as to why [I'm] right" doesn't even make sense. You join the pornsick masses in positing that viewing child pornography keeps pedophiles from molesting children, I say I can't believe that people actually think this makes sense rather than sheer rationalization. (Obviously "I can't believe" is rhetorical rather than literal.) My disagreement with that viewpoint is implied, of course, but my only actual claim in that particular post is that people have a large capacity for rationalization and self-delusion, which I would think is self-evident.

I do remember now and again that there's this really long post of Kizyr's to which I need to reply. However, I never seem to remember this at a time when I have the five or six hours I expect to need to research and write it, and I won't have that kind of time any time soon anyway.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I'm just saying that after you jizz, you feel like doing something else.

[Sonic#]

And we're just saying that sexual satiation, being very temporary and tied to physical arousal and expenditure, has nothing to do with some magical cathartic release of forbidden desires which permanently prevents rape. You don't feel like doing something else forever.

I've tried a short search and turned up nothing. Does anyone know how this trial turned out?

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

And we're just saying that sexual satiation, being very temporary and tied to physical arousal and expenditure, has nothing to do with some magical cathartic release of forbidden desires which permanently prevents rape. You don't feel like doing something else forever.

That's obvious. Otherwise, people would only have sex or fap once in their entire lives. It doesn't mean they can't recognize their urge returning and then go fap to another disgusting drawing.

[Alunissage]

That doesn't mean that they DO attempt to sublimate their impulses. Or that such attempts succeed, rather than simply encouraging the individual to obsess further. Fantasies about power and domination -- which is to say, anything involving any sort of porn ever, not just child porn -- only encourage the mindset of seeing a group of people as objects to be dominated, used, and coerced.

If you don't think that people -- I should just say males, as that's really who we're talking about here, the ones with power -- are uninterested in actually restraining any impulses they have instead of acting on them, consider this. Most men would probably say they think rape is wrong. (Sheer unthinkable anathema if it happens to a guy, of course, but yeah, kinda probably wrong if it's to a female they know.) Yet how many think it's okay and reasonable and even funny to ply a woman with drink to "get her" to sleep with them? Those men who do so are rapists. And how many have tried to persuade a woman to do things she thought were revolting or at least offputting because they had seen it in porn? Do they realize oh, I must be getting some totally messed-up ideas here, I'd better stop watching it so I don't find myself making her do something she dislikes/hates/finds humiliating [pop quiz: what would that be called again]?" Or do they try to talk or shame her into it... and if not her, then the next one?

When you watch or look at something to assuage impulses, it reinforces them, not eradicates them. Again, I can't believe this even needs to be said.

[Kizyr]

...I already addressed this at the end of the "Causation and Entertainment" and the "Fantasy and Reality" sections. But, Alun's claims are based on what amounts to anecdotal evidence; there's insufficient evidence there to make the claim that it's generally the case (or even widespread). It happens, sure. Is it common? Uncertain. Is it causally linked to porn? Eh, there's not information enough to suggest that.

To repeat some of it:

In logical and statistical terms, it's as useful as anecdotal evidence. Yes, it's a series of true stories, but the problem with anecdotal evidence isn't to do with the anecdotes' veracity--it's because of how they're collected versus how they're used. Under most of those topics, I didn't see anything on there about controlled studies, just a series of stories--most of them about specific individuals. (There were a few that did have studies, but I saw nothing that avoided the causation-correlation mistakes--I'll touch on that shortly.)

My contention is that most use of porn is similar. That is, it's within the mindset of a fantasy. And whether that fantasy seeps over into someone's real actions depends on their cognitive development--that is, how deep their distinction is between reality and fantasy.

One confounding effect, though, would be any short-term effects. That is, immediately after viewing porn, gauging someone's mindset would probably give some limited results (this is something I saw the earlier rom-com study do). That is, if you find that men who view porn immediately thereafter have higher or unrealistic expectations of beauty/sexiness, this doesn't necessarily prove if they, in general, have higher or unrealistic expectations.

KF

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Yet how many think it's okay and reasonable and even funny to ply a woman with drink to "get her" to sleep with them? Those men who do so are rapists. And how many have tried to persuade a woman to do things she thought were revolting or at least offputting because they had seen it in porn? Do they realize oh, I must be getting some totally messed-up ideas here, I'd better stop watching it so I don't find myself making her do something she dislikes/hates/finds humiliating [pop quiz: what would that be called again]?" Or do they try to talk or shame her into it... and if not her, then the next one?

Wow. You don't happen to go by the nickname BitingBeaver elsewhere online, do you?

Are you saying that if a man drinks with a woman and they end up sleeping together that he raped her? If a woman gets drunk and then comes onto a man and he accepts, does that make him a rapist as well?

The only things that make a man a rapist is if he requests sex and takes it anyway after being told no...OR if he bangs a sleeping woman.

As for the last part, I hope you aren't implying that a man is a rapist if he repeatedly asks for something until she gives in. If she gives in at all, it's consensual. You can't blame a man because a woman doesn't have the guts to put her foot down and keep it that way.

[phyco126]

Technically, if a woman is drunk and you sleep with her, even with it being consensual, it can still be considered rape. In order to have consent, the person has to be in the position to say so and not under any mind altering drugs. Simple as that. While cops aren't gonna go arrest people who do it and brag, they will arrest you if she decides to press charges. However, I do think it is a bit backward; if a sober woman sleeps with a drunk man, can he still claim rape? Or what of those cases were both parties are equally drunk, both have consensual sex, and he still goes to prison for rape? I don't agree with the law fully, even though I do understand the reason behind it.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Technically, if a woman is drunk and you sleep with her, even with it being consensual, it can still be considered rape. In order to have consent, the person has to be in the position to say so and not under any mind altering drugs. Simple as that. While cops aren't gonna go arrest people who do it and brag, they will arrest you if she decides to press charges. However, I do think it is a bit backward; if a sober woman sleeps with a drunk man, can he still claim rape? Or what of those cases were both parties are equally drunk, both have consensual sex, and he still goes to prison for rape? I don't agree with the law fully, even though I do understand the reason behind it.

Cops will always favor women out of the off chance of getting laid out of the deal.

If the woman is drunk, she's just more open to doing what she wants and is less likely to care. It's ridiculous for a woman to get drunk, have sex and then be embarrassed about who she slept with and then pressing charges. THOSE sorts of women should be popped in the mouth.

As I said..rape is only if they're asleep and you do it or if they say no and you do it.

[phyco126]

I disagree about the whole cops wanting to get laid by the very women that report these things.

However, while I don't agree with some laws, the fact is, the law is the law. Sex with a drunken woman is, by law, rape, regardless of consent. Tell a judge that she was only drunk, he'll laugh you all the way to prison. The point I was trying to make is that it is, by law, rape.

[Kizyr]

...phyco's right on both counts.

Rape is severely underreported. The idea that cops are biased in favor of women in cases of rape is fundamentally out of touch with reality (the other part about "wanting to get laid" as the reason is misguided on all accounts--but considering it's based on a faulty premise, it doesn't really matter).

You could argue that the law favors women over men in terms of rape, but that's an issue of judges, not cops--and, rape charges would have to be filed in the first place for that to occur (and, as I said, rape is severely underreported).

Additionally, you can believe whatever definition of rape you want. But legally, if the woman can't consent, and that includes being sufficiently drunk, then if she presses charges, it's rape. (By your definition, dropping GHB in someone's drink then having sex with them while they're too weak to resist is fine. "Hey, they're still conscious and they didn't say no, so it's ok!") I don't expect you to actually agree with me here, but it doesn't matter as the law already does agree with me. KF