God?

[NallOne]

Eh..

Agnostic, at the moment. Religion is something I struggle with, for personal reasons. When God's Fan Club tells you that you are damned to hell, right to your face, you'd be surprised how quickly faith in that God can just vanish from you.

Still, I'm only 18. I've (hopefully) got plenty of years ahead of me to figure things out.

[Sonic#]

At the moment, I'm agnostic as well. I don't scorn or mock the belief in a god, a goddess, or a Pantheon (Scorpioeyez, are there any gods or goddesses that you tend to favor? That interests me...), because I can't prove that they don't exist.

However, I'm also stuck from assuming he exists outright, because I cannot prove that they exist to my satisfaction.

And I suppose that all I would need is the belief, as assumptions are made all the time that can't necessarily be proven right or wrong, but play out correctly enough. I believe in something. I used to pray (and still do, sometimes), a litany I made up myself. "Lord, I hope everybody, everything, and everyone sleeps good tonight and tomorrow night." Then I would follow it with specific concerns, if I had them, and also an entreaty that I might sleep good too.

I don't believe in anything specific, but really just something more encompassing than anything I could comprehend, one that would listen, and not interfere. I still consider myself agnostic though. I think the existence of a god, weighed next to my responsibilities and principles in this world, is mostly irrelevant. Rather, it seems to me that the belief is the most affecting part, in both a positive and negative light.

The closest approximation I can find is deism, which is defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as "belief in the existence of a Supreme Being as the source of finite existence, with rejection of revelation and the supernatural doctrines of Christianity," though I can't really reject the revelations or supernatural doctrines even, as I have no definite way of doing so.

[MiaOne]

Actually I'm familiar a vague idea of what wicca is, I've had a few friends to followed that. The retreat that I specifically went to in Stubenville was the Stubenville Youth Conference which I was under the impression that it was held once a year. (Though I'm sure smaller ones are held there.) Most of the retreats I went to were local. Though I doubt you and I were there at the same time since IIRC (And this is a big IIRC, because I usually don't) you were about 13 or so about the time I would have been going to these conferences. (I'm 23 now)

I don't know a whole lot of devout Catholic practioners who are really educated about the faith. This probably explains why in time articles talking about the new pope such an overwheling number of Americans believe it's ok to "fudge" the rules.

Well, then I'm only 3 years younger than you, I'm 20, but you're probably right. Because, I only went twice, once a year for two years. But, I did go to alot of little retreats around Dayton and Cinci.

The Catholic faith has a lot of facets to it. I would like to study it more and I'm sure I will, but I know it isn't my cup of tea anymore.

You know what's awful that I saw the other day? There's this beautiful grove of trees by where I live. Absolutely goregous and it's right next to this enermous chruch (not Catholic Evangelist...I believe) that built itself into this old warehouse building. It's motto is "A pretty good church" Anyway...a lot of people go to this church or whatever and they a really nice, nig parking lot all around the church. Recently this "pretty good chruch" bought the grove of trees next to it (at least 3 acres) and they are tearing down every single tree to built...."a pretty good parking lot"

I was seething with anger. I cannot follow Christian relgions they are so disrespectful to nature. However, I have become very interested in the Francesican Order in the Catholic Church recently...Though, I still think I'm going to end up being a pagan who worships trees, it's just me.

[GhaleonOne]

I cannot follow Christian relgions they are so disrespectful to nature.

I think that's a pretty niave thing to say... Some people that follow Christianity might be disrespectful to nature, but how is Christianity as a religion disrespectful to nature? I so no real substance to your claim there. Just because a church tore down some trees? I take quite a bit of offense to your comment, as I love nature, otherwise I wouldn't love to go hiking in the mountains as often as possible, and yet I'm a Christian.

[Kizyr]

When God's Fan Club tells you that you are damned to hell, right to your face, you'd be surprised how quickly faith in that God can just vanish from you.

Bah, I've been told I'm going to hell dozens of times. Hasn't changed my faith one bit.

I was seething with anger. I cannot follow Christian relgions they are so disrespectful to nature.

...I think you know better than that. Do you express the same kind of animosity towards every school, business, grocery store, and house in your area? To build everything around there, something had to be torn down. Nashville used to be almost all forest.

I still don't like the scale of development they're doing in Nashville; a lot of hillsides have been clear-cut. Most of it is done for housing. KF

[Scorpioeyez]

When God's Fan Club tells you that you are damned to hell, right to your face, you'd be surprised how quickly faith in that God can just vanish from you.

Bah, I've been told I'm going to hell dozens of times. Hasn't changed my faith one bit.

If you're interested I know where you can buy a Get Out Of Hell Free card to carry with you.

[Audric]

I go to church on occasion But I belive in him sometimes.

[Kizyr]

When God's Fan Club tells you that you are damned to hell, right to your face, you'd be surprised how quickly faith in that God can just vanish from you.

Bah, I've been told I'm going to hell dozens of times. Hasn't changed my faith one bit.

If you're interested I know where you can buy a Get Out Of Hell Free card to carry with you.

Which is just silly.

While I'm at it, I may as well keep two gold coins with me so I can pay Charon to ferry me into the underworld. KF

[NallOne]

Bah, I've been told I'm going to hell dozens of times. Hasn't changed my faith one bit.

Eh. I've been told by thousands, as well as on my Television, and by my President. You can only take so much before you just toss your hands up in defeat.

If you're interested I know where you can buy a Get Out Of Hell Free card to carry with you.

Even if I believed in God completely, I still would not believe in Hell, so that would have little point. As far as I'm concerned if She exists, She is a being of love - Sending any of Her children to a neverending barbecue doesn't fit in with my vision of Her. That is...if I believed in Her completely. Which I don't.

[GhaleonOne]

*warning now - Heavy Christian theology coming. If you're offended by standard Christian beliefs, I'll warn you to skip this post.

Even if I believed in God completely, I still would not believe in Hell, so that would have little point. As far as I'm concerned if She exists, She is a being of love - Sending any of Her children to a neverending barbecue doesn't fit in with my vision of Her. That is...if I believed in Her completely. Which I don't.

Actually, I totally disagree with that. Genesis states that God made man in his image. That's the first point. That God created humanity, so he apparently cares about us enough to breathe life into us. Secondly, all throughout history, God gave man the ability to affect history and the future by his/her actions. Personally, I feel if God just sent everyone to heaven for free, that'd be the actions of a weak God. To me, that means God doesn't believe in us, his own Creation, enough to choose him, pure love, rather than sin and evil. Instead, God actually loves His creation enough to give them a choice by freewill. Point is, I disagree heavily with the statement that God could send someone to hell and not be love in nature. If God is truly love in it's purest form, then, as I believe Leviticus teaches and the ancient Jews believed, pure love and holiness cannot come in contact with sin and evil. If it does, love and holiness is not contaminated, but rather, the sin and evil is utterly destroyed. This is why the Jews sacrificed in ancient times. This is also why, I believe, God sent Christ, to make sure humanity, God's Creation whom he loves as deeply as possible, is not destroyed by it's own sins. By putting faith in Christ, rather than ourselves, Christ's death and resurrection has meaning, and we get the chance to partake in that resurrection, rather than choosing sin, which leads to death (Romans). That's what Christian's will call "saved". This foretelling to an ultimate sacrifice is propechied all throughout the Old Testament as a coming Messiah.

That said, I don't believe I have the right to tell God who he can and cannot send to heaven or hell. That's up to God. I just believe in the above as a surefire way of a salvation that is the very essence of pure love.

[Lunar Eclipse]

The vision of heaven and hell is a duality that arose based on contact between the Hebrews and the Zoroastrian cultures that enslaved them, so I highly doubt that our common notion of a hell filled with everlasting torment is really what they had in mind.

[GhaleonOne]

Yeah, the common idea of "hell" was a mixture of cultures, not the least of which was the Greek culture, which even after Rome rose to power, still dominated the culture. The Jews had a belief in "Sheol", which was, eh, kinda like hell, but not quite.

[Coley Lou]

Umm btw everyone I do believe that Scorp was making a joke about the get out of hell free card. I'd like one!

And I remember learning about Sheol. From Jehovah's Witnesses. I've been to many churches, and I find religion facinating which is unfortunately why I can't possibly (in my mind, I know other can) have faith in one, because they're all so different, in my eyes why is one more correct then the other.

It always makes me happy to see people so admant about their belifes, because it is something I do not have. I'd rather someone was thick on their stance then wishy washy with the turning of the trend. As long as everyone is respectful to eachother.

In my experience with my friends I have found that it is, or rather seems, impossible for them to be very faithful and respect other peoples religions. Like for instance. My friend Sarah as sweet as she is to me and understanding, will preach to me when I'm at my worst times. And while I appreciate her intentions, I don't agree with her, so I don't generally want to hear it. And as much as we are great friends, I always know in the back of her head, she is thinking "Nicole is going to hell, how can I save her?" And I know this whenever she says she's praying for me.

I'm not trying to offend anyone, because everyone has to have something to believe in. I mean I believe that I just don't know, and can't possibly know. That's my belief.

As for Nall, I know what he's talking about. And I understand where he's coming from. And part of that has made me shy away from christianity. The things I enjoy I am made to feel like I sinned for, when I don't want to feel bad for doing things I like. So perhaps that's a cop out in the eyes of Christians, and maybe it is. But I can't spend my entire life hating myself for doing things I truely don't believe are wrong.

I do pray though. I don't know if it counts for anything and in my head I always tell God that I don't expect him to listen since I don't necesarily believe he's even there. But at any rate it does bring me comfort.

BTW, Eric is one of the smartest people I know when it comes to this stuff, because he's had to deal with both sides of the spectrum and rather then rejecting, he embraces and learns. And I respect that the most. It is more then I can do.

-Nicole (Sorry my spelling is so awful)

[GhaleonOne]

BTW, Eric is one of the smartest people I know when it comes to this stuff, because he's had to deal with both sides of the spectrum and rather then rejecting, he embraces and learns. And I respect that the most. It is more then I can do.

Eric really is. I've been through 4 years of ministry and theology classes, and when I talk to him, I feel like a student. He has a handle on understanding things like this beyond the normal person.

[NallOne]

First off: I swear, Coley Lou is like taking things out of my head and posting them better than I can. Every time I read one of her posts in this topic I think to myself: "Hey, that's me!" Anyway...

I do pray though. I don't know if it counts for anything and in my head I always tell God that I don't expect him to listen since I don't necesarily believe he's even there. But at any rate it does bring me comfort.

I am the same way. Often when I am in a very 'bad' place, or someone in my family is ill or going into an operation, I pray quite openly. I think of it as: I don't quite believe, but I know that he/she does, so maybe if God does exist, She will be willing to help someone who believes in Her even if the actual prayer is coming from someone who doesn't. Surprisingly, I often feel a sense of relief after praying and sometimes even feel as though my Prayers have been answered.

Of course my family often makes fun of me for this, saying that if I pray to that God then I must obviously believe in Her, but...it isn't that simple.

[Coley Lou]

My prayers are always the same. I always ask not to have nightmares, which never works XD I always ask to have him watch over my friends and family. And usualy at the end I'll ask him to do something specific for someone specific. And I always end it with "In Jesus name I pray Amen" Because I was taught he doesn't hear it if you dont' say that.

I just have too many questions that can't be answered by christianity. I'm not sure if there is a religion out there that could possibly give me enough comfort to believe in it.

I'm glad someone else knows how I feel

[Mog Dragonheart]

Yeah, usually when I'm in a pretty sticky situation I pray to God in my head that things work out for me~ Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. I thank God when they do and I blame myself if they don't, that's how I go. And when things do go right, I aint joking when I say THANK GOD, I CANT BELIEVE IT IT WORKED OUT. I really do mean that sht with all my heart. I never went to church and I grew up doing this and he wasn't really an emphasize on my life.

[ilovemyguitar]

I'm going to preface this post by saying that my absolute last intent with this post is to directly attack anyone or insult their faith. I respect all of your chosen faiths, and your right to practice them.

But anyway, here's a major disagreement I have with the Christian God and notion of Heaven/Hell. If we believe the Christian Bible, the New Testament especially, our one purpose on Earth is to believe in Jesus. If you accept Jesus as your savior, you go to Heaven. If you don't, you go to Hell. While other acts may be smiled or frowned upon, it is whether you accepted Jesus that is your true judgment.

Now, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, why would he allow me to not accept Jesus? If he created me, it would be his fault for not hard-wiring me to come to that conclusion.

So, what is the purpose of Hell? To punish us for God not creating us the way he wanted us to be.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is one reason on a list of many of why I am an atheist.

[Ruby]

*warning now - Heavy Christian theology coming.

By putting faith in Christ, rather than ourselves, Christ's death and resurrection has meaning, and we get the chance to partake in that resurrection, rather than choosing sin, which leads to death (Romans). That's what Christian's will call "saved". This foretelling to an ultimate sacrifice is propechied all throughout the Old Testament as a coming Messiah.

Just to note, that's what some sects of Christianity call "saved". Specifically some of the Protestant sects. Catholics don't prescribe by the whole "saved" thing at all but believe that the sacrament of baptism washes away original sin and brings a human into the grace of god. Should a human commit any "grave mortal sin" (Which is considered to be anything against the 10 commandments, taken to a /very/ long extent and definition) puts the person out of god's grace. To get back into god's grace one needs to take the sacrament of Reconciliation and confess their sins to a priest. If one dies while out of god's grace, they go straight to hell. If you die in god's grace, you goto purgatory to absolve yourself of the sins that you committed but confessed to, and when you have finished your time in Purgatory you get to goto Heaven. Purgatory is pretty much like hell except they let you out eventually.

Some things that qualify as grave mortal things include of course adultery, lying, murder, taking the name of god in vain, magic, psychics, horoscopes, or any other kind of super-human ability that could not be attributed directly to being granted by god's power, hurting someone, impure thoughts including thoughts of sex, arousal (That's right guys, if you liked the bath scenes in Lunar too much and you're Catholic, better get to confession or your going to hell. ), thinking of hurting someone, not believing, taking eucarist when out of god's grace, and I used to have a tape that /listed/ all the various things you could not do in detail. Needless to say it's a very very long list which basically assures you don't do much of anything, really.

Personally though, I stopped believing in that stuff a long time ago. Or more specifically I stopped pretending I believed in it to make myself feel better. It's pretty bad when you /want/ to believe something and realize you're just lying to yourself. I stopped going to church because I was feeling guilty saying the Nicene (SP) creed every Sunday and realizing I was lying when I said it. You know, why you stop repeating it per rote and listen to what you're saying.

Also, as far as organized religions are, I tend to view them as business ventures. Albiet I'm sure most are honest people meerly trying to do their work, no organization with an infrastructure like theirs can get away from the need to generate capital and to increase their client base. That's all their is to it, if you want to spread your message to more people and fulfill what you believe is your evangelical duty you have to face those simple realities. Once you look at it that way, all of the things that are often let "slip" from public view become more apparent. If the Catholic church pushed their hard line, catechism written doctrine at every Sunday meeting, well, there'd be even fewer people there every week.

I'm pretty much part of the camp that god did not create man, but man created god.

Now, of course for all I know there could possibly be some sort of deity, but I'm not holding my breath over it. It's also entirely possible there could be an afterlife that involves no deity whatsoever, but once again I don't exactly have much a way of knowing. I hope that's the case, but that falls in the same kind of catagory as, "I'd like world peace."

Now, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, why would he allow me to not accept Jesus? If he created me, it would be his fault for not hard-wiring me to come to that conclusion.

Supposedly the reasoning is that god gives people free will because he wants them to love him and that it's meaningless to force people to love him. You know, kind of how it's meainless if you cheat at a game to make yourself win?

[NallOne]

Now, if God is all-knowing and all-powerful, why would he allow me to not accept Jesus? If he created me, it would be his fault for not hard-wiring me to come to that conclusion.

G1 more of less touched on that, but: Free Will. God gave us free will. We can do with our lives what we choose while we are in this part of our existence. That includes the ability to choose between Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, God and whatever else is on the other end of the spectrum. (I don't believe in Satan, and I also don't really believe in an opposite to God. This is just my understanding of the Christian view.)

If God said: "Well, I love all of my Children so you all get to come to Heaven with me when you're done down there. Go ahead and commit Sin. Kill, Steal, do your best to represent everything I oppose and you can still come", then the entire point of Sin and Holy Laws is made pointless.

Mind you, She is supposed to be one of Love and Forgiveness, so personally I don't know how she can breathe life into something - Giving it the option of committing Sin - Then damn them to hell for doing so. You don't create something with the ability to Sin simply to punish it for that. Why make us capable of Sin and then punish us for it? There can be Free Will without Sin. Make Sin foreign to our species. Make it as impossible to Kill as it is to Walk on Water.

Before I go any further, let me just make perfectly clear that I have no problems with Religion or people who follow those religions. Most of my comments following this are mostly directed at the overzealous Christians who think with their Bible, not with their heart nor their head. Even if what I say is about you directly in some way, this isn't an attack or an insult or anything like that. Simply my opinion, which I have come to thanks to my own interactions in life - I'm not saying all Christians are hateful, negative, conniving people who spend their lives trying to make mine miserable. Just that there are a good lot of Christians that do.

Looking through the Bible, it is obvious that the majority of the scriptures reflect the times. Homosexuality is Abomination because the Church's enemy at the time was known for their tendency to conduct in Homosexual acts quite regularly. (I use this example because it hits close to home.) Most things in the Bible were - To someone who is reading it with an open-mind who does not believe in the Faith - written with the sole intent of controlling the people who actually believed in God. A man is not to sit where a woman has sat while on her menstruation, or he is to be killed? I mean...half of the things in the Bible, most notably Levictus, make absolutely no sense today. Not to mention, according to a close friend (Who is a Priest), the laws of Levictus were no longer upheld after the death and resurrection of Christ. Whether or not that is true or not, I couldn't say. I haven't touched a Bible in over 5 years.

The Church uses the scripture to control people. I am convinced of that. That is not to say that 100% of it is there for that purpose, or that people are wrong for following the Bible - They just shouldn't do it blindly. They shouldn't take it literally, to the word, as a guideline for their lives and hate because it says to hate. Just look at Fred Phelps. Granted, he isn't the poster child for Christians, but he is a perfect example of the Bible shaping someone into a person filled with negativity to every ting that isn't deemed "Acceptable" by the Bible.

Let us not forget that once upon a time the Bible was used to support the slavery of African-Americans. Whenever the Church or the Government for that matter is unhappy or disagrees with a group of people or their actions, they find something in the Bible to 'prove them right'. Then, years later they completely change their tune and no longer abide by this scripture so strictly? The Bible is loose as long as it suits them. In the end, if most Christians would actually stick to their "Love the Sinner, hate the Sin" and prayed for me rather than telling me I am going to hell, there would be a lot less dislike of them on my part and most likely on other's as well.

Well this went way out of where I wanted it to go. Religion, especially Christianity, is a touchy subject for me. I've constantly been targeted and hassled by Christians for the last 6 years of my life - They tend to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. I'll just stop before this goes too far and I touch some nerves.

- Mike