Tu parles Anglais... seulement!

[Sonic#]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/13/mayor. ... index.html

This is an interesting story I ran across. It struck my eye because Nashville is close. The issue is an English-only bill that was vetoed by the mayor, Bill Purcell.

Personally, I don't see what any such bill would do, exactly, especially the one as described in the article. Most of the signs around here are already in English only. Where it's in another language as well... that doesn't affect me. It seems to be done mostly as a demonstration, or a preventative against a threat that doesn't exist.

And otherwise, I was stricken by this comment.

"Councilman Eric Crafton sponsored the measure, watered down from originally requiring all government communication to be in English, has said it would offer an incentive for immigrants to learn English."

Incentive? I normally view incentives as something positive. An incentive would be giving free cake for learning English. No, to rhyme, it's more punitive, as it seems to punish one group, for the benefit of continued monolingualism.

Thoughts? Anything done like this in your area?

[Kizyr]

Yeah it is pretty ridiculous. You already know I was born and raised in Nashville, and I always enjoyed the multiculturalism. Purcell really is right; the bill does absolutely nothing, it's stupid to think we need a law to remind us what language we speak, and it's equally stupid to think that English (especially in government offices, like this) is going to be supplanted by anything else.

I never got why people feel so threatened when other people speak another language. I can only trace it to a bit of narcissism, some kind of suspicion that the other folks are talking about them and they can't understand.

There are also a lot of situations where we should have information in other languages. Have you ever looked through driving regulations at the DMV? That stuff confuses even me; even if you're fluent in English, if it's not your first language, having the same information in your first language can save a lot of confusion. Bills like this let folks be all arrogant and give justification to deny others help when they deserve it. KF

[phyco126]

Well, no offense to anyone but I always felt that if you move to a country, you should at least try to learn their language. It's not just because I'm afraid of them, or arrogant, but it does get aggravating when you are standing in line in a fast food restaurant and the person in front of you ordering doesn't speak english and you end up standing there for 15 minutes while they try to order a simple burger and fries. Grrrr. How about the more serious side of things? 911 calls or related emergancies (we have so many hispanics here that our PD actually has a hispanic task force to handle hispanic communities.) Some say the solution is we should learn their language. Screw that, I can barely learn German and I lived there for several years (as a kid.) I seriously don't have the kind of brain power to learn all 50+ languages of the Earth.

Errrr, getting back to the topic, even with my feelings about all of it, I still respect the fact that some people just can't learn or those that do try to learn just can't cut it. At least they tried. I also don't see the need to force other's to learn a language. The more you force, the more people will resist. It's better to gently push them to at least try to learn english or whatever language their current home country speaks.

Does any of this make sense or did I just make someone mad?

[Werefrog]

I think it's important to remember that most immigrants are trying to learn the language. It's tricky though for several reasons. I think that there's no denying that it's difficult to master a language. Some people who you perceive as not knowing English may have a fairly high level of oral comprehension.

Also, I think there's a greater struggle to learn the new language and culture while preserving the old. I'm not going to go as far as saying this is universal, but I know that this is true for my family. I am descended (I think...) from German immigrants that had been in the US since the early 1800s. and one hundred years later there were still members that spoke mostly German.

[Kizyr]

Well, no offense to anyone but I always felt that if you move to a country, you should at least try to learn their language.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical then that you lived in Germany for several years, but never learned German?

What about diplomats and their families? International business and diplomacy is usually conducted in English; expecting them to learn the local language of every place they visit, especially when they might have no longer than 3-year appointments, is unrealistic.

What about recent immigrants who are still working on learning the language (and sometimes while working overtime as well)? What about older immigrants? I'm not going to expect someone who moved to the US in their 50s to pick up English easily.

It's easy to say "well, they should learn the language", but that requires patience on our part, rather than just sitting there and expecting them to learn by osmosis. Everyone's willing to point the finger, but no one wants to admit to the patience part.

It's not just because I'm afraid of them, or arrogant, but it does get aggravating when you are standing in line in a fast food restaurant and the person in front of you ordering doesn't speak english and you end up standing there for 15 minutes while they try to order a simple burger and fries.

Those are trivial situations, and usually have nothing to do with language. While me and my father were in Poland, I ordered from the McDonald's or whatever local fast food chains they had there without knowing Polish. Those kinds of situations don't require any linguistic skills; being slow is just a matter of, well, being slow. Or having specific requests.

Grrrr. How about the more serious side of things? 911 calls or related emergancies (we have so many hispanics here that our PD actually has a hispanic task force to handle hispanic communities.) Some say the solution is we should learn their language. Screw that, I can barely learn German and I lived there for several years (as a kid.) I seriously don't have the kind of brain power to learn all 50+ languages of the Earth.

No one's saying that; and I love how folks always like to exaggerate by saying they need to learn 50+ languages, when in reality we're talking about having at least one person on the force who can speak Spanish. Any police force has a responsibility to do what it can to serve its community, and having enough people who speak Spanish, especially when in response to the demographics of the local community, is simply common sense. Same with having Spanish-language information available at the DMV, or Spanish-language tax forms.

Errrr, getting back to the topic, even with my feelings about all of it, I still respect the fact that some people just can't learn or those that do try to learn just can't cut it. At least they tried. I also don't see the need to force other's to learn a language. The more you force, the more people will resist. It's better to gently push them to at least try to learn english or whatever language their current home country speaks.

It's not a matter of resistance; it's not like people don't want to learn English when they come here. Not knowing English keeps a lot of doors closed and severely limits your interaction with other people; you don't need laws to see to it that that happens, it's just the fact that English is the predominant language in this country. It's just a hard thing to sit down and learn, especially when your time is limited.

But I do agree that force has a negative effect. Not because of any resistance, but because it ignores the fact that it's patience and encouragement, not force, that's going to get more folks to learn English. And (here's my conservatism speaking here) that's the kind of thing that comes from people and communities themselves--the government getting involved screws it up since, well, government intervention just tends to get things wrong. KF

[meg]

i used to work at a ponderosa steak/buffet place. the set up was like this:

owners: asian family
waitresses/cashier: white girls
cooks: black men
kitchen staff: latinos
managers: mixed

it was stereotypical as all hell. and in the kitchen was a constant stream of spanish. they had to hire a bi-lingual manager to make sure the kitchen staff understood everything.

and it's not like the staff were snubbing english or anything. but you have to understand, they're working full time, and they go home and have to take care of their families and such. they're just trying to get by like everyone else, and there's not time or money enough to go out and get english tutors. there was one boy that flirted with me at every chance. had he known english, he'd have used english. instead, we talked in hand gestures (made for very brief conversations).

also used to work in the toy section at walmart. i would get latino families coming in asking for a particular toy. they were frustrated--i didn't know spanish, they didn't know english, but christmas or some birthday or anything was coming. again, hand gestures. you think that poor mexican father doesn't wish he could just walk up and say "i need a tricycle for my three-year old son"?

they have ESL--english as a second language--classes in public schools. but for children, not adults. the first generation of immigrants just aren't going to mesh. they have to work too hard, too long, just to make ends meet. and this is true for asian and other immigrants too. we shouldn't freak out over first generation immigrants. they're trying, but really, true integration is second and third generation--the ones who've grown up here.

we should be hospitable and welcome them in, not belligerant and disparaging.

[phyco126]

Well, no offense to anyone but I always felt that if you move to a country, you should at least try to learn their language.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical then that you lived in Germany for several years, but never learned German?

1. I was only 5 or 6 when we finally left Germany
2. German classes where mandatory.
3. I tried, and even when I went to high school I still took German classes.

My whole point is they should at least try to learn. I'm not dense enough to not know that it may be impossible for people to learn. You have those who are like me, they just can't retain the info they learned. You also have those that are too old to really learn, or those that don't have the time to attend classes. I can understand that. What I can't understand is those that refuse to learn.

[Werefrog]

1. I was only 5 or 6 when we finally left Germany

That's when it's the easiest to learn though! Did you speak German at the time and just forget it?

[phyco126]

[

1. I was only 5 or 6 when we finally left Germany

That's when it's the easiest to learn though! Did you speak German at the time and just forget it?

Actually, I have always had a problem with learning another language. I learned more when I was in high school than when I was in Germany. At the time in Germany, I just couldn't learn it no matter how much I tried.

[DeathBeforeDenial]

The 2000 census states that 11.9 million homes were linguistically isolated. Stating that English was not spoken at home or nobody in a hme knew the language "very well".

Also, the Census goes on to mention that the amount of linguistic assimilation (to English) varies inversely with the amount of people that speak another language in the U.S. So the more people that speak another certain language, the lazier people get because they build isolated communities were the afformentioned language becomes predominant.

There are avenues for people to learn English if they so choose, it is merely an apathy or contentment that prevents people from learning the dominant (And often official) language of a country (The smallest prevention being a slowness or inability to learn). For example I know of three churches in my area that do FREE ESL classes, varying times and days. My Boss came to the U.S. when he was 14 from El Salvador, he learned English to a fairly proficient level in a year and a half of public, non-billingual school.

I understand that a first generation immigrant will not assimilate easily into a foreign language, however that is not an excuse to not at least try, not to mention these parents that undo all the schools are trying to do by buying their children books in other languages and speaking to them in said language. Too much money is spent yearly by the government, and too much money is lost yearly on behalf of the immigrants who cannot get good jobs because they cannot speak or understand English.

And as much as I wish gentle encouragement worked, from what I can see it does not, at least where I live it is so culturally accepted to not speak English, that if you even suggest using English as your primary language you are labeled as a racist or Xenophobe. Even if it is for their own best interest in terms of employment and community opportunities.

Heck if wanting an official language makes you a racist I guess 90% of the countries in the world are vile bigots that do not believe in multiculturalism.

[Werefrog]

Also, the Census goes on to mention that the amount of linguistic assimilation (to English) varies inversely with the amount of people that speak another language in the U.S. So the more people that speak another certain language, the lazier people get because they build isolated communities were the afformentioned language becomes predominant.

Is this really an issue of laziness? It seems to be more about comfort. I know if I had the choice, I would live in a community where the people spoke the same language as I did (especially if I perceived the people who spoke the other language as being hostile to me). Also, this complaint ignroes history as EVERY group of immigrant has done the same. When the people who founded this country came, they didn't learn the Indians' language. They formed their own isolated communities. The same pattern keeps repeating with all immigrants. Because, you know, there is a desire to keep traditions of the old country. And part of that is being around people from the old country. My ancestors did it; your ancestors did it.

There are avenues for people to learn English if they so choose, it is merely an apathy or contentment that prevents people from learning the dominant (And often official) language of a country (The smallest prevention being a slowness or inability to learn). For example I know of three churches in my area that do FREE ESL classes, varying times and days.

Many of the immigrants that are having the hardest time learning the language don't have time to go to these clases. These classes aren't truly free. Time is money in our after all.

I understand that a first generation immigrant will not assimilate easily into a foreign language, however that is not an excuse to not at least try, not to mention these parents that undo all the schools are trying to do by buying their children books in other languages and speaking to them in said language.

I've researched this topic on the Internet for a class before. One of the papers I read asked the question, "Why is it considered a strength when a native English speaker is bilingual but not when it's a native Spanish speaker?" I think what you consider a weakness I consider a strength. I wish I had an opportunity to start studying a second language before I was 14. Also, It's important that children have some idea about their family's culture. Part of that is the language. And I think it's obvious that parents need to speak to their children in Spanish if the parent doesn't know English.
[/quote]

[Mog Dragonheart]

Well, no offense to anyone but I always felt that if you move to a country, you should at least try to learn their language.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical then that you lived in Germany for several years, but never learned German?

My whole area is predominantly Korean now. Just about every store and business is Korean. You go to one of their restaurants, their menu's are solely in Korean. Just about everyone is making no effort to cater to anybody but Koreans. The worst part is they don't give a crap and that's their sole intentions (To bring Korea to America)

Somehow, I've become an outcast to all these adults in a town I was raised in all my life and they only came here a few years ago. They look at me like I don't belong here. Many show absolutely no courtesy or make an attempt at courtesy in their own native language if they can't speak English.

One of the worst things was a Korean missionary(?) who spoke English was out their praising the word of God and telling people to come to church and be saved. Whatever. The thing was she pulled my friend over who's Korean and asked if he was saved but hell she didn't even give me the time of day. It's a joke between my friend and me now saying "How come she only out there saving Korean people?"

[DeathBeforeDenial]

Is this really an issue of laziness? It seems to be more about comfort. I know if I had the choice, I would live in a community where the people spoke the same language as I did (especially if I perceived the people who spoke the other language as being hostile to me). Also, this complaint ignroes history as EVERY group of immigrant has done the same. When the people who founded this country came, they didn't learn the Indians' language. They formed their own isolated communities. The same pattern keeps repeating with all immigrants. Because, you know, there is a desire to keep traditions of the old country. And part of that is being around people from the old country. My ancestors did it; your ancestors did it.

The fact that things happened in the past doesn't make things right, it's the fear of assimilation that allows whole cultures to be preyed upon because of irrational fears, fears that are preyed upon by others. For example, when the large Vietnamese influx occured in California post 1974, they were very fearful of both police and banks, it was that irrational fear that lead them to keeping all of their money/assets on their property, and when the 2nd and 3rd generations of Vietnamese/Related Asian ethnic groups grew to teenagers they used that information and the irrational fears of the older generation to invent a new type of crime that worked ridiculously well on their target victims. The Home-Invasion Robbery.

Had those coming into the country known more about the land in which they lived they can rise above fear and the great unknown, I want that for immigrants, I want them to rise above and not seclude themselves, because they will never be able to rise above poverty, poor education, and low expectations without taking some steps towards the system that is in place.

Many of the immigrants that are having the hardest time learning the language don't have time to go to these clases. These classes aren't truly free. Time is money in our after all.

But a good number do, yet they choose not to. I will concede that there are those who work two jobs and do not have time for a class, but there are books, easy ones, there are videos, so many avenues that are not explored. If they saw it as a necessity for success (Which the vast majority agree that it is) then they would do something about it. Which is the big underlying issue, any time people mention the importance of learning English they are seen as xenophobic and ethnocentric, if you truly care about these immigrants than you want the best for them, and you would encourage them at every step that to succeed and get ahead you need to be able to communicate, so many people ignore this fact ignorantly thinking it's some sort of Western-European arrogance that guides the drive for immigrants learning English. It helps them, and it helps the government/economy there is no disputing that.

I've researched this topic on the Internet for a class before. One of the papers I read asked the question, "Why is it considered a strength when a native English speaker is bilingual but not when it's a native Spanish speaker?" I think what you consider a weakness I consider a strength. I wish I had an opportunity to start studying a second language before I was 14. Also, It's important that children have some idea about their family's culture. Part of that is the language. And I think it's obvious that parents need to speak to their children in Spanish if the parent doesn't know English.

Whoever said that has never been to Los Angeles or Orange County. It is a strength to know another language, whatever one it is regardless of whether or not English is your first language, but it is a greater strength to know English in an English speaking country. Just as I'm sure knowing English in China may have it's perks, it is far more important to learn Mandarin, the majority spoken language of China.

Also, the little quip I think fails to mention something, so I am going to go out on a limb, context wise. It is probably considered a strength because of the fluency and comprehension advantages that a native English speaker has, as opposed to someone who learns it as ESL or in a foreign language speaking home.

OK, as for culture, why is it that everyone makes a big stink of modern immigrants losing their "culture". Am I doomed to have no culture because I am a 10th generation American (I really don't know when my family came here, don't you feel bad for me?). I mean lets be realistic, do I wish that I could speak Gaelic or Swedish? No, it has no utility, other than a method of exclusivity and arrogance in its own right. Who actually believes you pay homage to your culture by knowing words. Is every word of English I speak an affirmation of my Americanism! No! It's just a means of communication, a means of conveying idea, thought, emotion.

Giving language these ludicrous titles like "Cultural Heritage" makes them something they were never meant to be. If you want cultural heritage learn the history of the country you love, learn its literature, its art, its music, its architecture. If the only heritage you can hold onto is some innate vocabulary that was given to you from birth then you have no authority to say you care about your country.

And as for the parents that don't try and speak English in front of their children, well, they are selling their childrens futures short because they would rather not take an hour, or a half-hour or fifteen minutes out of a day to learn some English and help them in any way possible. They just assume the government will step in a make them learn it when even native English speakers are mediocre at best because of the poorly managed public school systems. All things that affect and mold children start with the parents.

[Werefrog]

I'm not denying that English is required for success in the United States. And I'm really sorry that you have been excused of being a xenophobe in the past for your opinions on the matter. However, you need to realize that learning a second language isn't as easy as you think. It also doesn't make you a bad parent to speak to your kids in a language where you can actually communicate.

[phyco126]

It also doesn't make you a bad parent to speak to your kids in a language where you can actually communicate.

No, I think his point was that you should start helping your children learn english rather than just talking to them strictly in your native tounge. The problem is so bad here, that not too long ago there was some law that if passed, it would have required schools to switch to bilingual, instead of strictly english, because of all the spanish speaking immigrants who send their children to school.

[DeathBeforeDenial]

I'm not denying that English is required for success in the United States. And I'm really sorry that you have been excused of being a xenophobe in the past for your opinions on the matter. However, you need to realize that learning a second language isn't as easy as you think. It also doesn't make you a bad parent to speak to your kids in a language where you can actually communicate.

Thank you, I don't want to come across as though I am trying to support some racist or foolhardy ideology.

And yes, I do realize learning a new language is difficult, currently I am learning Sign Language, and understanding the culture is a very important part of understanding the language, and it's really hard, way harder than learning vocabulary and sentence structure. But my point is, that even if it is hard, there is no excuse for me not to try. If I am serious about understanding their culture and their language it requires my effort.

[Kizyr]

DBD, you do bring up some good points, most of which I agree with. Economic empowerment does come from the ability to interact with more people in the community, and a lot of times it's possible to learn basic English if you're living in this country, even if you have very little time to do so.

The problem I see comes from another direction, though. There's definitely a lack of understanding and patience coming from a lot of folks who expect immigrants to come directly "off-the-boat" and speak fluent local-dialect English, and a lot of the same people don't understand that there are differing levels of fluency. Someone might be able to order food in a restaurant or ask for help, but they won't be able to understand a tax form or the list of documents you need to bring to the DMV.

And that's where the stupidity of language regulation comes from. We already know we speak English, and any official documents (which is all that these laws apply to) in this country are already going to be in English, so all this legislation isn't going to help 'preserve' English usage. On the other hand, it's not going to encourage immigrants to learn English because it misses the point of the previous paragraph: there's a learning curve for the language (especially if you're working most of the time), and there are differing levels of fluency (and official documents are often on the upper end of that fluency level).

So as far as the benefits of knowing the local language, and being able to interact with more people, that much is indisputable; and, might I add, saying that such a thing is necessary for economic advancement is accurate, even if folks like to call it xenophobic. But, 'English-only' legislation completely misses the mark and ends up as just some feel-good measure that encourages nothing, except for maybe a little arrogance.

Giving language these ludicrous titles like "Cultural Heritage" makes them something they were never meant to be. If you want cultural heritage learn the history of the country you love, learn its literature, its art, its music, its architecture. If the only heritage you can hold onto is some innate vocabulary that was given to you from birth then you have no authority to say you care about your country.

And as for the parents that don't try and speak English in front of their children, well, they are selling their childrens futures short because they would rather not take an hour, or a half-hour or fifteen minutes out of a day to learn some English and help them in any way possible. They just assume the government will step in a make them learn it when even native English speakers are mediocre at best because of the poorly managed public school systems. All things that affect and mold children start with the parents.

This is the part of what you said which I think is the most inaccurate.

First, language is tied to culture. Very strongly. And it's much more than just vocabulary and a means of communication. When you're fluent in a language it represents another mode of thinking, some of which can be quite similar to your native language, but not necessarily, and not all the time. I'm generally more polite if I speak Japanese, and generally more casual if I speak Spanish. When I speak to my sister in English, even, I have a slight southern accent that I usually don't use when I'm talking to people here, and I'll say different things on account of that.

Language and how you use it is tied to how you are, the circumstances in which you learned that language, and the culture of the origin of that language as well. I still regret that I didn't sit down and learn Bengali when I was little (more on that later), and I know that if I did, then I would've been able to communicate a lot better with my parents, and there would've been fewer misunderstandings between both of us--misunderstandings that relate to culture and not only communication. This is despite the fact that both of my parents were fluent in English years before they moved to the US.

As for the latter paragraph, sure, it's important for parents to encourage their children to speak English. But if they're in an environment when they're using English regularly (e.g., going to public school), then there's not a strong need to teach English in the home. Hell I wish my parents spoke to me in Bangla when I was little; I would've learned English regardless, and if they spoke to me in Bangla all the time while at home then I could've just as easily picked up both. It's not sealing your kids' fate when you don't speak with them in English; it is, however, if you never encourage them to interact with other people.

Just as I'm sure knowing English in China may have it's perks, it is far more important to learn Mandarin, the majority spoken language of China.

Most places outside the US are poor examples because of the prevalence of English as an international language. Most Chinese don't expect foreigners to know Chinese, even if they've been living in China for a while (that probably goes double for places like Shanghai or Hong Kong that don't speak Mandarin, or Tianjin on account of a stronger accent). In that sense, knowing English can get you by.

But along those lines, if you want to do official business in India or Bangladesh then you'll need to know English. If you want to do official business, or any legal/governmental work in Morocco or Algeria, then you need to know French.

My only point here is that what people hold true about the US isn't transferable to other countries. So the analogy doesn't quite stick. If anything, it offers a good reason why Americans really need to be more willing to learn other languages besides English. KF