Any girls that have dated...i need to talk to someone

[Alunissage]

I'd have to say that not every guy is like that, though. I got into an argument/discussion about this with a couple guys a few months ago, that even though looks aren't enough to base a real relationship on, without initial visual appeal they're not likely to get to know the girl well enough to find the thing they can base a relationship on. She might have the best personality in the world, but if they never notice her because she's plain or unattractive, they'll never find out. Not everyone looks for the same thing, of course, hence why women who aren't supermodels do find people interested in them, but it's certainly an uneven race in that regard. Of course, with all the emphasis on looks, many who are plainer will probably be so aware of this as to lack self-confidence, becoming less attractive personalitywise as well.

Mind, I met my husband online and we'd been in a relationship for nine months before we met in person, so I can say it wasn't the case for him; he didn't know what I looked like when he became interested in me. He's a hell of an unusual person, though, and I'm not just saying that as his wife; I wouldn't base any generalizations on him.

[serphnx]

I'd have to say that not every guy is like that, though. I got into an argument/discussion about this with a couple guys a few months ago, that even though looks aren't enough to base a real relationship on, without initial visual appeal they're not likely to get to know the girl well enough to find the thing they can base a relationship on. She might have the best personality in the world, but if they never notice her because she's plain or unattractive, they'll never find out. Not everyone looks for the same thing, of course, hence why women who aren't supermodels do find people interested in them, but it's certainly an uneven race in that regard. Of course, with all the emphasis on looks, many who are plainer will probably be so aware of this as to lack self-confidence, becoming less attractive personalitywise as well.

Mind, I met my husband online and we'd been in a relationship for nine months before we met in person, so I can say it wasn't the case for him; he didn't know what I looked like when he became interested in me. He's a hell of an unusual person, though, and I'm not just saying that as his wife; I wouldn't base any generalizations on him.

I think women put that emphasis on looks themselves, as many women have told me they get dressed up for other women, not to attract men's attention. Could they be trying to justify (in some cases) slutty behavior? Maybe, maybe not, as a woman, what's your opinion on that claim?

Here's the thing with what you mentioned: are these girls actually doing anything to get to know the man better themselves, or are they just passively trying to attract a man through their looks? If a girl doesn't want to initiate any contact, then of course men will judge and approach her based on her looks, she isn't conveying anything else. I've found that girls that have hobbies or are outgoing and try to make friendships have a very easy time regardless of their looks, and obviously that makes sense. Maybe you meant even in those cases looks matter, but, in my own personal experiences, I have found that is almost never the case. If a guy blows off a girl who is really friendly, he will usually be criticized by his other male friends, and probably a lot of the female ones as well.

[meg]

catch 22. for years, women weren't SUPPOSED to be outgoing. that was considered "unbecoming" of a woman. and it wasn't women that put THAT system in place.

old traditions still flavor modern culture, with lots of things still being gender defined (like colors and toys. my mom refused to get me any toy weapons. i had to borow my brother's or make my own).

and different guys like different things. my fiance hates the puffy-breasted porno look. he's into geekier looking females--both as an aesthetic, and what that appearance indicates. we choose what we say about ourselves with our clothes. the day i met him, i was wearing a pair of ten-year old van shoes, a red boy's hoody, jeans and glasses. i was carrying a sketchbook (and a plunger, but that's a different story).

i was quiet. i'm USUALLY quiet. but, my clothes said i was laid back, and a bit of a tom boy. glasses give a smart/geek appeal. sketchbook indicates an artistic bent.

and because we met in a comic shop on a college campus, that meant we had similar interests and goals.

women tend to be a bit sideways when they say they get dressed up for other women. you have to read the intentions behind such a statement. first off, they're saying it to YOU, a male. why? because admitting to a male that they dress for males is inviting attention from YOU, as well as inviting insults (slut, whore, etc). see, saying "we dress up for men" can be read as "we want your sex." this is not actually what women want.

women dress up because they like being pretty. they want compliments, they want admiration. other women, recognizing this, will often cater to these desires. that's why when one woman says " like your hair", another will often reciprocate with "i like your blouse" or something similar.

some women also see it as a competition. they want to be the prettiest, that want to make other women envious.

and many girls think guys DO care about looks. because that's what they're shown. those makeover movies are the worst, where they take the geek girl, glam her up, and suddenly she gets the guy she couldn't get before.

it's not about justifying slutty behavior.

if you want to talk about THAT, well, there's a whole world of inadequacy and daddy issues to get into.

[Kizyr]

You also gotta consider that every guy has different tastes in what they find attractive--physically or otherwise. Which is part of what Meg was getting at...

There's also the issue of your opinion of someone's personality coloring how you perceive them physically (i.e., a good opinion means you're more likely to see them in a favorable light, and overlook their flaws; a bad opinion means you're more likely to notice those little imperfections and magnify them). But, I'll ignore that for now since it's a different subject and won't affect my point...

Anyway, for instance (I'm gonna be blunt here, so forgive any language), some guys like tanned women with blonde hair and big breasts. Some guys prefer thin and slender, maybe pale or light-skinned. Some guys like both; some guys like neither. Some will fixate on one or two things (chest size, double-eyelids, facial symmetry).

There's no one standard for beauty. What I like isn't always reflected in what's pushed as the general standard for beauty. That's not to say that, for instance, I don't think Angelina Jolie looks good; but I'd rather be watching Kari Byron (off of Mythbusters) talking about ballistics gel and chemical reactions. Just to give an example. KF

[phyco126]

One of the ironies of women, is that I have heard so many complain about our (guys) behavior towards their looks. Yet whenever I try to say that make-up is pointless aside from perhapes a formal date/party I end up being scrutinized by those very same women. Hmmmm. OOOOoooookay. Whatever.

To me, beauty is skin deep. I prefer the outgoing, kind and gentle, understanding girl that has the same intrests as I do. I've fallen for girls that may be considered ugly almost completely due to their personality. On the other hand, I've fallen for girls that had less than nice personality (and given the chance, I would decline dating them.) Then there are the girls that have the looks and the personality, the "dream girl" so to speak. I've had those, and my heart pays for them every second of every minute of every day.

So yeah, while I center on personality, I still can't help but focus on their looks (to a certain extent.)

I also hate those make over shows. I prefer the shows that have doctors going to third world countries doing surgeries on deformed children rather than a show giving plastic surgery. The only thing I want done is lose some weight, build back some of my muscle mass, and get braces to straighten out my teeth.

Though thankfully I'm not the only one who finds Kari from Mythbusters attractive.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

it's not about justifying slutty behavior.

if you want to talk about THAT, well, there's a whole world of inadequacy and daddy issues to get into.

So you're certain that girls who are whorish have inadequacy and daddy issues or was that line meant for humor?

EDIT: also, i must say this. One of the most attractive things a girl can do is NOT wear make-up. It shows confidence and some level of a lack of concern for the views of others.

[meg]

it was a joke.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

it was a joke.

I thought a debate was comin'! Twas like a moth to the porchlight, i tell ya!

[meg]

i knoooow what you saaaaw. i'm psychic like that.

but no, actually, i've met girls who act that way out of loneliness/insecurity/daddy issues.

but i know as many who act that way because sex is fun.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

i knoooow what you saaaaw. i'm psychic like that.

but no, actually, i've met girls who act that way out of loneliness/insecurity/daddy issues.

but i know as many who act that way because sex is fun.

The MAJORITY of girls i've known who are whorish are for several negative reasons. I've known about 3 girls that have sex just to get off.

Here's an interesting question. As a society, how long do you figure it'll be before a woman go out and bone like a man without the double standard?

[meg]

that is really hard to say.

i honestly have no idea. i think it depends on which parts of society you apply the question to. the more religious aspects? never. islam, chistianity, judaism, hinduism, etc, don't even approve of the man whoring, let alone the women. sections of that part of society might be more forgiving here and there, but they won't ever sanction that sort of behavior.

but we've had tv shows depicting women doing as they please for years. and society tends to swing back and forth. there was "free love" in the sixties, but we're obviously not practicing that anymore.

i don't know if you have a livejournal or not. there's a community there called "brutal honesty", where people pretty much just want to indulge their voyueristic tendencies with others' "dirty secrets"--anything from base sexual fantasies to "i secretly hate/got revenge on so-and-so" to "i'm afraid of _____" to personal and usually painful epiphanies. one of the entries was from a girl who does go around bedding whoever she pleases.

but not because she enjoys it. she does it because she was raised thinking everyone does it, that that's what you're supposed to do. she didn't say if she was abused, and if taken at face value, i do think that that sort of swing is where we're headed now. she was aware enough of the double standard that it qualified, to her, as a "brutal honesty", but it obviously didn't enter into her life enough that she thought it was relevant, or that anyone ever tried to dissuade her from doing as she supposedly always has.

so, parts of society are very close to that point, and i doubt other parts will ever reach it. i think religion may have to die out first.

[Jenner]

Oh -Dragon Diamond-! I'm late! The topic turned serious! It stopped being all weepy and turned into mature discussion. Darn it! I BLAME YOU MEG.

society frowns on behaviors they do not want expressed, fronting them as scandelous. Truthfully if these people were not wanted and/or meant to be around they would not be cultivated by society. Whoregirls exist because they are sculpted by consumerism, the attention/reaction they'll get and the fact that guys seek them out.

They can't be double-standards if you have no standards at all.

normally, I'd post an amusing picture or some such here. But this is a serious discussion now and I will not desecrate it with my immaturity.

[serphnx]

I really don't think there is a double standard. Guys that sleep around generally like girls that sleep around because they feel these girls have have more sexual experience (and they do, that is common sense). Guys that do not sleep around want girls that don't sleep around, because they're looking more for a girl to settle down with and share their life with, and that's hard to do with someone that obviously jumps around a lot, it's always hard to just change what you're accustomed to. The problem is when girls that sleep around complain that guys that don't sleep around aren't attracted to them, that really isn't a fair complaint. jmo

[meg]

the double standard is that guys who sleep around are considered "studs"--with a positive connotation--while girls that do the same are called "whores"--negative connotation.

societal perceptions.

and guys that sleep around don't necessarily respect the women they sleep with. because they are "whores" while the guy is a "stud."

i have met guys that do respect the girls they sleep with, but, i've met lots that don't. i briefly considered joining the military and was sent to stay at a hotel with a bunch of others for a next-day early morning mass physical. the busride from the hotel to the medical place was nothing but barely legal male sluts bragging over the girls they banged at the hotel the previous night. in really demeaning, stomach turning language. so glad i didn't go through with that.

[Jenner]

the double standard is that guys who sleep around are considered "studs"--with a positive connotation--while girls that do the same are called "whores"--negative connotation.

societal perceptions.

and guys that sleep around don't necessarily respect the women they sleep with. because they are "whores" while the guy is a "stud."

i have met guys that do respect the girls they sleep with, but, i've met lots that don't. i briefly considered joining the military and was sent to stay at a hotel with a bunch of others for a next-day early morning mass physical. the busride from the hotel to the medical place was nothing but barely legal male sluts bragging over the girls they banged at the hotel the previous night. in really demeaning, stomach turning language. so glad i didn't go through with that.

As am I, and I bet the fiance is too.

[serphnx]

the double standard is that guys who sleep around are considered "studs"--with a positive connotation--while girls that do the same are called "whores"--negative connotation.

societal perceptions.

and guys that sleep around don't necessarily respect the women they sleep with. because they are "whores" while the guy is a "stud."

i have met guys that do respect the girls they sleep with, but, i've met lots that don't. i briefly considered joining the military and was sent to stay at a hotel with a bunch of others for a next-day early morning mass physical. the busride from the hotel to the medical place was nothing but barely legal male sluts bragging over the girls they banged at the hotel the previous night. in really demeaning, stomach turning language. so glad i didn't go through with that.

I don't really think it's a double standard, because as I said, guys that sleep around won't turn down a girl that sleeps around, and girls that sleep around won't turn down a guy that sleeps around. Guys that don't sleep around a lot of times don't want a girl that sleeps around, and I don't see how this isn't their right, a girl that doesn't sleep around doesn't have to go for a guy that sleeps around, and I know many girls that also make that choice. If you do an action that gets you a reputation, you can't just complain about it, people have every right to have freedom of choice in dealing with you. "Society" in general doesn't care, or at least most of it.

[Agawa]

EDIT: also, i must say this. One of the most attractive things a girl can do is NOT wear make-up. It shows confidence and some level of a lack of concern for the views of others.

Just a little note, since I'm not in the main conversation. You finding make up unattractive does not mean everyone does, and doesn't mean no one should wear it. I do believe it's overhyped (AKA the marketing ploy that one needs expensive product to "be pretty") but that doesn't mean it's inherently better to not wear it at all.

[Mog Dragonheart]

EDIT: also, i must say this. One of the most attractive things a girl can do is NOT wear make-up. It shows confidence and some level of a lack of concern for the views of others.

Just a little note, since I'm not in the main conversation. You finding make up unattractive does not mean everyone does, and doesn't mean no one should wear it. I do believe it's overhyped (AKA the marketing ploy that one needs expensive product to "be pretty") but that doesn't mean it's inherently better to not wear it at all.

You can say that again. What a little make-up can do for some girls is amazing as well as what boob-jobs can do. God, I love America~

[serphnx]

EDIT: also, i must say this. One of the most attractive things a girl can do is NOT wear make-up. It shows confidence and some level of a lack of concern for the views of others.

Just a little note, since I'm not in the main conversation. You finding make up unattractive does not mean everyone does, and doesn't mean no one should wear it. I do believe it's overhyped (AKA the marketing ploy that one needs expensive product to "be pretty") but that doesn't mean it's inherently better to not wear it at all.

I don't like the idea of make up period, it's hiding your true self. How can you expect others to really love who you are when you put on a mask to the world?

I've had to wear makeup once and I hated it. I starred in some play when I was younger and apparently you're supposed to wear makeup even as a guy when you go on stage or on screen. Makeup is really hot and greasy imo, I couldn't stand wearing that everyday. I think it also ruins your face, so after awhile you really do need it. Better to have a few blemishes that might go away when you're older than ruin your face entirely for a few extra compliments when you are younger. The most attractive women I have met don't use makeup, or use it very very sparingly.

[Alunissage]

Lots to respond to, though for the most part I think I'll stay out of it. (Hahaha, did anyone actually believe that? I did for the first half of writing this.)

1) As far as I can tell Kari is solely there to BE eye candy, with her bleached-red hair. (Pointless, right, Phyco? ) She's basically the equivalent of the girl who dresses provocatively to get attention, because her role is to draw that attention. Sure, she does stuff too, but it's pretty obvious by how she dresses that she's there to get fanboys to drool over how cute she is. And it works, obviously. (I miss Scotty, who actually knew what she was doing.)

2) Phyco, the reason women are less than delighted when you comment that makeup is pointless is that you're basically telling them that their efforts to make themselves look better are pointless and they should be stuck with whatever less attractive face they feel they have, under-eye circles and blemishes and all. Not that that's why everyone wears makeup, but they do generally wear it to look better and even though it's not what you intend to say you're telling them that they failed and wasted their time... not a pleasant thing to hear even when a more pleasant sentiment of liking them as-is is underneath it.

3) There are reasons to wear makeup. In the most extreme cases it can be to cover or diminish the appearance of major scarring... and however independent you think people should be, if you're not the one getting the rude stares and all you're probably not qualified to make that judgment. Sometimes it's just not having gotten enough sleep lately -- I don't wear concealer generally, but I did for my wedding because I didn't want dark circles showing up under my extremely pale skin and looking in the photos like I'd been beaten up. Some people have eyebrows so pale and thin they look nonexistent, which gives their face a strange look which again can attract unwanted attention. And sometimes one needs to look professional, and being polished and looking grown up can be part of that.

4) Stage makeup does not remotely resemble real-life makeup, so don't base your opinion of what it feels like on that. Stage makeup is designed to be used under bright lights, which bleach everyone out, and it does tend to be horrendously thick and greasy. I did the makeup for my college band's spring variety show a couple of years, and while we went fairly easy on the foundation/base (just using normal stuff) everyone, including the guys, who had any sort of talking or singing part on stage had to wear eyeshadow and blush, because underneath those lights all you see are eyeballs, mouth, and maybe nostrils, in this solid-color circle of skin. It's not natural lighting, and people look... unnatural, without help.

5) Although I've just written more or less in defense of makeup, I generally agree that there are better things to do with my time than put it on. However, not putting on sunscreen is basically saying yes, I want to be wrinkled and possibly cancerous. Breakouts from sunscreen are temporary, wrinkles are forever. But as it happens, makeup with sunscreen in it usually is less likely to result in breakouts than sunscreen by itself, and that's the main reason I wear makeup sometimes: if my skin's been acting up, I don't want to encourage it to do so, yet I want that sun protection. So the makeup both serves as less comedogenic sunscreen and camouflages the problem. I wear so little that my husband can't tell I've put it on unless he watched me do it, with the obvious exception of lipstick, which I go easy on as he doesn't care to wear it himself. It's not a mask to me; in a way, it feels much more masklike to wear contact lenses because my face doesn't look like my face any more to me without the glasses. And yet the glasses are unnatural.

6) Oh yeah, I should probably say something about the actual current topic. There is absolutely the double standard that Meg describes. Few people will sneer at the man who sleeps around as they would at the woman who does so. And while "studs" may appreciate the existence of "whores" to put out for them, that is not at all the same as thinking that there's no stigma associated with it. What I see directed at the "easy" girl is contempt, basically membership in a lower class which can be used. Not the same as the ones people want to marry or otherwise form a longer relationship with, because if those women were "easy" then there'd be nothing special about getting her because she gives it to anyone. Thus, no particular ego boost (or emotional significance) in sleeping with her. Remember the southern slave owners with their slave mistresses, and their own bastards who were also slaves? The attitudes of wanting a "whore class" to both use and look down upon are still there, just less blatant and perhaps subconscious. That's the attitude Meg overheard on the bus.

The reasons people sleep around vary. But I'll bet that for some women at least it's because they did it a few times and found themselves seen as approachable for sex, and even ended up typecasting themselves as someone who sleeps with people casually. There's a nontrivial tendency to see certain milestones as being one-way, redefining what sort of person you are, and sex is certainly one of them. (Example: I knew two girls who both were planning to wait until marriage to have sex, but both ended up having it with their fiances, who were also virgins, because they felt they were already married/committed. Both engagements ended -- one because of infidelity -- and both girls included sex in future, noncommitted relationships. They were no longer people who didn't have sex with those to whom they were not married and were not intending to marry.)

Oh, to get back to that "justifying slutty behavior" bit, I'm not sure what you mean by justifying it. It's done to get attention. The degree of attention desired and received varies, but that basic point is the same. On a less conscious level, it's desirable to have that kind of attention because it's a measure of power, being able to evoke reactions. It's hard to get someone to listen to you if they're not paying attention. Some women feel this is the only way they can get any power; others are self-confident and want the extra edge. Not saying this is why everyone flirts, just that the increased influence gained thereby (especially in a setting where males outnumber females) can be a very significant factor.