Overly formal language is overly formal...

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Lunar Eclipse
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Sun Jan 24, 2010 2:59 pm

Aaron wrote:@Kizyr
I understood your point. What pisses me off is that your point is irrelevant. We're not talking about love. We're talking about cultural specific references. Wind is clearly a Japanese thing.

But the basis for your entire argument is your personal ignorance of the use of wind in English metaphorical language, which in itself is irrelevant when so many English speakers here are telling you that they have heard it used in such a context before. It's like claiming a word doesn't exist in English just because you haven't heard it before. And I believe that when Vic said it was literal to a fault, he was referring specifically to the opening song.
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:21 pm

Regardless, words are understood through personal interpretation and obviously not everyone thinks the same way. Even English teachers/professors have their own interpretation of the English language so they teach it their way. Even they can screw up the basics.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Kizyr » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:35 am

Aaron wrote:I understood your point. What pisses me off is that your point is irrelevant. We're not talking about love. We're talking about cultural specific references. Wind is clearly a Japanese thing.

It's an analogy. If you disagree with my analogy, I understand where you're coming from. I don't understand why it would actually piss you off, however, seeing as it's such a minor disagreement.

Aaron wrote:The reason you were mistaken on Dragon Song and so far this game is because of your near religious fanatism of this game.

The reason I was mistaken on Dragon Song was because G1 and I had a lot of advance knowledge on the game that looked promising. After the newness of a new Lunar game wore off, and it was clear that the game was executed poorly, I developed a different opinion.

Now, I don't understand why you want to point out that I changed my opinion on the game as a bad thing, but it's your prerogative to interpret it however you wish. I notice that you do tend to deal in absolutes: something is either definitely one way, or definitely another way. Now, I have a nuanced opinion of the game (as mentioned in other threads), so I can see why you could interpret it negatively considering your stated preference for absolutes.

Aaron wrote:I didn't overlook Shiva, I read it and didn't comment on it because the one's that person came up with were strange.
...
Know which way the wind blows - Negative (reference to farting?) Also I've never heard this one.
...
I was reading neogaf and Victor Ireland said that the translation is literal to a fault. And you know what? I completely agree.

Lunar Eclipse wrote:But the basis for your entire argument is your personal ignorance of the use of wind in English metaphorical language, which in itself is irrelevant when so many English speakers here are telling you that they have heard it used in such a context before. It's like claiming a word doesn't exist in English just because you haven't heard it before. And I believe that when Vic said it was literal to a fault, he was referring specifically to the opening song.

Quoting Lunar Eclipse for emphasis. I can't state it any better than he has.

Lastly, I've been taking extra measures to respond to you calmly and clearly, despite your continued insults. I recommend you do the same; I'd greatly appreciate it. KF
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:38 am

I have to wonder, how the hell did things develop into a pissing match on who's opinion is better or more relevant? At this point we can all agree to disagree as some phucking stupid ass lyrics incited such bullshi+. It is NOT important, and as far as the game is concerned I don't know how often I have to tell people to stop jumping the gun.

There are going to be likes and dislikes, but it was the same with the earlier games. If I was XSEED I'd certainly not even want to cater to the fans at this point because of how ridiculous such minor things become. This is me speaking generally, and all I'm saying is people need to decompress.

People wouldn't act like rabid dogs if the series didn't give us something only every ten years or so.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Shiva Indis » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:20 am

I agree that the song lyrics are more literal, how could I not? I had a kinda negative reaction the first time I read the "heed the call of the wind" line too, actually. I even think it's too flowery. I mentioned this before, but it's an Xseed write-in; the Japanese line is nothing like it.

However, it's not culturally inappropriate. No one has had a difficult time making sense of it. It doesn't mean that the whole game is going to read like a poetry class project. The rest of the demo isn't like that, and it's not a bad size to sample from.
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:21 am

Alex' intro dialogue is moreso paying homage to Tsubasa, Wind's Nocturne, or Wings, or whatever the hell it's called. He's merely waxing poetic, and it's not the first time we've encountered cheezy shi+ in a Lunar game. It can also be changed, but it most likely won't.

Heed the call of the wind is basically saying "A call to arms" or "Destiny is calling." Something overly literal may sound more forced. However, he is being introspective at the beginning and it isn't until he meets Quark that he realizes it really is his time to realize his destiny and dreams of becoming a Dragonmaster.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Imperial Knight » Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:41 pm

I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Werefrog » Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:22 pm

Imperial Knight wrote:I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.


Beware the false Vireland!

To me, it seems weird that Vic would start posting here now. There have been mentions before of Wings goofy lyrics (for the record, Wings was one of my favorite parts of Lunar when I first started playing, but I was like 13 at the time so...), so it seems weird that he would just now come here to defend the "honor" of his translation.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Kizyr » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:10 pm

Imperial Knight wrote:I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.

It's actually Vic. Both G1 and I have verified this. KF
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:17 pm

These Lunar n00bs, they know little. He came out of the woodwork because the lyrics were being compared to XSEED's, and there was nothing to compare them to in the past. Pay attention! *cracks whip* :twisted:

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Dark_Fairy » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:29 pm

Wow, I decided not to check this topic since page 3 because I kind of got the idea on what was going on, but today I started to wonder why this topic is still going. I know why now. I should have stayed on top of this topic! Things are getting interesting! :3

What I understand: An argument about wind, Lyrics being argued, Vic posted (wow), and...stuff. ^^;

*hides back into the darkness to watch this topic*

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Imperial Knight » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:34 pm

Kizyr wrote:
Imperial Knight wrote:I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.

It's actually Vic. Both G1 and I have verified this. KF


Color me surprised.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Silver Phoenix » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:35 pm

What color would that be? :P

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Werefrog » Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:49 pm

Silver Phoenix wrote:These Lunar n00bs, they know little. He came out of the woodwork because the lyrics were being compared to XSEED's, and there was nothing to compare them to in the past. Pay attention! *cracks whip* :twisted:


I'm no noob nor is Imperial_Knight (formerly known as Scrambler on the WD board).

But, if Kizyr and G1 say it's Vic, I guess it's Vic (or Jenner in a convincing Vic disguise).

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby GhaleonOne » Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:35 am

Kizyr wrote:
Imperial Knight wrote:I suppose anything's possible but I doubt that's actually Vic.

It's actually Vic. Both G1 and I have verified this. KF


Well, I assumed so because he was using the same Email address he's used in the past. That and it's not like Vic doesn't know this place exists. He was always super-cool about supporting any version of LunarNET I ever had up, so it's not a surprise for him to make a post on what is easily the most active Lunar forum around.
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Imperial Knight » Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:46 am

In the absence of other information, it wouldn't surprise me for Vic to post here. The fact that he hasn't posted here up until now is what makes it surprising to me.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Alunissage » Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:50 am

It surprises me that people are surprised and suspicious, considering he posts at neogaf, but I guess after all this time not so many are familiar with his writing style.

Anyway, I've always had the same quibbles about the lyrics that Lunar Eclipse does, and Vic knows quite well how much I think about language and grammar. :P I will admit that I never considered the visuals as contributing to the sense of the lyrics so directly, which may seem strange. But what trumps the strict language issues is the musicality -- and in this regard the WD version exceeds (ha) the XSEED one. Specifically, the internal rhymes follow the musical repetition, and the syllables fit. Perhaps this is because my musical background is primarily instrumental (and what wasn't instrumental was usually not in a language I spoke), but I see the lyrics as there to support the music, not the other way around. I'd rather have incoherent imagery than concrete clunkiness...not that I'd actually call either set of lyrics incoherent or clunky. One could even make a case for disjoint lyrics fitting the theme of dreams.

I need to listen to the XSEED one a bit more before I comment on its content. I will say, in addition to that shoehorning of "magic" near the end, that I kept wanting to convince myself that the second line was something that rhymed with "Far away" rather than just being a repetition of it, because that would have been a nice poetic touch. I'll look forward to hearing and/or reading the full-length song; when I heard it on their website it was playing at chipmunk speed for some reason.

Okay, I suppose I'm more or less reconciled to the SSSC lyrics now. For that song. I don't think I ever will get over the angel line in the other song. :P

Regarding this rather idiotic argument about the metaphorical use of "wind", has anyone considered that Alex's intro in the demo isn't actually the beginning of the game? That line of his may refer back to preceding material.

Other phrases: ride like the wind; winds of fate; sow the wind, reap the whirlwind; it's an ill wind that blows no good. I suspect there are a bunch of nautical ones too.

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:25 pm

Alunissage wrote:Anyway, I've always had the same quibbles about the lyrics that Lunar Eclipse does, and Vic knows quite well how much I think about language and grammar. :P

Admittedly, I think about grammar a lot too, but I don't think it's at the crux of my argument. If it were, I'd be picking at minor things like the fact that it should be "Each of our souls intertwines" (with a singular "intertwines" to refer back to the singular "each", not the distracting prepositional phrase with the plural "souls" right before it). I understand that this is the kind of error made in casual speech, and it's fine for a song. It's just that I'm sort of meh about the first verse, get slammed with the incoherent, ambiguous diction during the second verse that I'd explained previously, and then can't seem to recover from that during the third even though I like the end.

Alunissage wrote:I'll look forward to hearing and/or reading the full-length song; when I heard it on their website it was playing at chipmunk speed for some reason.

I wrote it down a bit earlier, so it's reproduced below. I might also point out that I actually like the second round in the full version better and almost wish that were the section used for the intro (the slight strangeness of the Alps reference notwithstanding), but oh well. XD

Far away, far away, beyond the bounds where light fades from day,
Bestride white wings forgotten by the winds of time.

Surely our paths shall cross one day soon,
As the future beckons to us with cheerful tidings and open arms.

So now our journey begins, bound for a new world filled with magic.
Deep within our memories lies the door of legends open to us.

----

Far beyond billowing clouds, over the ridge of snow-covered Alps,
Hearts are filled with elation where rays of hope shine down.

Though at times we may stumble and fall,
With courage to stand we rise once again and march ever onward.

So now our journey begins, bound for a world where adventure awaits
And endless dreams always lie, beneath its vast and wondrous azure sky.

----

So now our journey begins, bound for a new world filled with magic.
Deep within our memories lies the door of legends open to us.
Last edited by Lunar Eclipse on Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby SilentApprovalRobot » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:24 pm

Lunar Eclipse wrote: Admittedly, I think about grammar a lot too, but I don't think it's at the crux of my argument. If it were, I'd be picking at minor things like the fact that it should be "Each of our souls intertwines" (with a singular "intertwines" to refer back to the singular "each", not the distracting prepositional phrase with the plural "souls" right before it). I understand that this is the kind of error made in casual speech, and it's fine for a song. It's just that I'm sort of meh about the first verse, get slammed with the incoherent, ambiguous diction during the second verse that I'd explained previously, and then can't seem to recover from that during the third even though I like the end.


... :)


" Far away, far away, beyond the bounds where light fades from day,
Bestride white wings forgotten by the winds of time.

Surely our paths shall cross one day soon,
As the future beckons to us with cheerful tidings and open arms.

So now our journey begins, bound for a new world filled with magic.
Deep within our memories lies the door of legends open to us.

Far beyond billowing clouds, over the ridge of snow-covered Alps,
Hearts are filled with elation where rays of hope shine down.

Though at times we may stumble and fall,
With courage to stand we rise once again and march ever onward.

So now our journey begins, bound for a world where adventure awaits
And endless dreams always lie, beneath its vast and wondrous azure sky.

So now our journey begins, bound for a new world filled with magic.
Deep within our memories lies the door of legends open to us.
"


...?

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Re: Overly formal language is overly formal...

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Wed Jan 27, 2010 5:26 pm

Ah, now that you mention it, those are probably right. XD Thanks for the fixes.
Let those who war with life forfeit their own! -- Mareg, Grandia II


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