This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

For discussion of Lunar: Silver Star Harmony, the PSP remake of Lunar 1
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Jenner
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This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Jenner » Mon Nov 30, 2009 1:01 pm

Y'know, I like change when change is necessary. I'm not a big fan of change when there's no point to it. Change for change's sake is stupid. Change just to make it different is asinine. If there's something wrong with something, if it wasn't working, if it was incorrect, if it could be done much much better you change it.

If it's going to make it worse, you leave it alone.

If it's not broken, you don't fix it. So it's a remake, this is not a big deal. It is a big deal that they're practically going out of their way to do everything they can to make it as different as possible from the original game.

If this was Final Fantasy, that would be fine. Final Fantasy has never had an established Canon, it's never had a time line, it has never been confined by a traditional story. It has always been a different game with some similarities each time.

But, Lunar is NOT Final Fantasy. And that's fine, you do not have to be Final Fantasy to be a successful RPG series. The best thing about Lunar was that it WASN'T Final Fantasy. Lunar HAD a story, Lunar IS a canon. It is a world, with a history and a mythology and a lore. It is a land with an already established story of events which have been set in stone. A series of historical instances which were very awesome. There Is Nothing Wrong With This.

We do not need to change that, just as we do not alter our history books. We retell the story because it is real and it is awesome. That is the point of Lunar, it is concrete, it is real, you can know it. Why are we ashamed of this? Why are we adding things? Why are we changing things? Why can we not just tell the same story, prettier? Why can't we BUILD on the already established story, develop it more, develop the characters more, add more adventures within the core of the story? Is that really so hard? Really? What has become of video games? Why do we have to tack on all this additional rubbish that was never mentioned before ever?

"But Jenner!" you say. "Maybe this HAS always been here, maybe it was a deep, dark SECRET history! You are being too judgmental." Well I say fie on your deep dark secret black market history that the common man does not know. That is a -Dragon Diamond- excuse, we all know what this really is. It's a desperate frantic addition of New -Dragon Diamond- OMG to encourage people to buy a game they think they've already played. Y'know what? Those people who are buying Lunar because it's different than Lunar don't deserve Lunar. Those aren't the fans you want, -Fatal Hopper- those fans.

And you know? I'm kind of bored of this. This deep dark exotic over-evil is not awesome, it is cliched. Not only that, but it distracts from the awesomeness that is Ghaleon, makes him seem insignificant. Makes him just a pawn, just a tiny speck of evil in the shadow of this way more evil thing. THE GHALEON I KNEW AND LOVE WOULD NEVER BE SOME INSIGNIFICANT SIDE VILLIAN. THE GHALEON I KNEW WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SOME GUY'S -Borgan-.

"But Jenner," you may say. "It's obviously alluding to Zophar!" You know what? Zophar was a SURPRISE. THAT WAS WHAT WAS SO GOOD ABOUT ZOPHAR. For the longest time, you weren't even sure Zophar existed. All you knew was that Leo thought Lucia was some destroyer of the world but she was hot and you were going to help her on her journey because she needed you. And when you finally begin to suspect that maybe the Zophar guy is serious business it's already too late because OMG He is real and he's taken over EVERYTHING and isn't that just so diabolical? And even then, you STILL haven't seen him. So he's still just this dark oppressive figure with control over everything. And when he finally does present him self, HOLY -Dragon Diamond- OMG WTF BBQ. That, my friends, is good story telling. That, is EPIC. That is AWESOME.

You know what ELSE is awesome? Something good, and divine, and righteous being turned and corrupted, going crazy and having to be killed to save the world. Y'know, the whole The Black Dragon Has Lost It! Are You A Bad Enough Dude To Save The World From Itself? That was Epic Lore, that was unique, that was original, that was deep and engrossing. It made us think, it made us wonder. Deities forbid we make the current day game-player question his concept of divine, of good and evil, heaven forbid they have to THINK.

So many questions were brought up by just that. What made the Black Dragon go insane? Why didn't it die? (It did die? It clung to life though, it was an undead dragon I think. At least in TSS it was.)

Now, that isn't what happened at all. No no no, now some uber powerful dark -Fatal Hopper- has been pulled out of some -Fatal Hopper- ass for the sole purpose of being NEW and DIFFERENT and TOTALLY NOT A REMAKE.

I was going to buy this game because it was Lunar. A lot of people are buying this game because it is Lunar.

But it is not Lunar.

-Fatal Hopper- you, L: SSH

SSH is the perfect anagram for you. Because you should be kept quiet. You should shut the hell up, and you should never exist.

I'm taking back my pre-order money.

Rest in Peace, Lunar.
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Lunar Eclipse » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:06 pm

Jenner wrote:The best thing about Lunar was that it WASN'T Final Fantasy. Lunar HAD a story, Lunar IS a canon. It is a world, with a history and a mythology and a lore. It is a land with an already established story of events which have been set in stone.

Uh, haven't the creators said before that the different remakes are supposed to feel a bit different, as though they're different oral traditions describing the same events but with somewhat distinct detailing? The general major events are set in stone, but all of the subevents can change without affecting the overall history.

And I'm not entirely sure why you're so upset with Silver Star Harmony specifically when it's the one remake that changes the least since it's so heavily based on Silver Star Story. Anything it adds is superfluous and wasn't described in detail beforehand anyway, so what's the complaint here? It's basically doing what you're saying a good remake should do, which is to leave the main story alone and expand upon the preexisting lore. If anything, the problem you have would need to be with Silver Star Story's existence in general, not this latest remake.
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Erasculio » Mon Nov 30, 2009 2:38 pm

Jenner wrote:The best thing about Lunar was that it WASN'T Final Fantasy.


That's kinda...Sad. The best things about Lunar are about Lunar, they are not about comparing it to another game. If the greatest joy you had when playing Lunar was when thinking about Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder if you actually enjoyed Lunar for what it is at all.

I'm excited to see the changes in the story. I'm not against change just for fear of change; I hope they did something nice with how things are now, regardless of how I liked TSS more than SSS.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Shiva Indis » Mon Nov 30, 2009 6:16 pm

Jenner wrote:We retell the story because it is real and it is awesome. That is the point of Lunar, it is concrete, it is real, you can know it. Why are we ashamed of this? Why are we adding things? Why are we changing things? Why can we not just tell the same story, prettier? Why can't we BUILD on the already established story, develop it more, develop the characters more, add more adventures within the core of the story? Is that really so hard? Really? What has become of video games? Why do we have to tack on all this additional rubbish that was never mentioned before ever?

I agree in general that tacked-on material isn't worth it, and Harmony does suffer from that somewhat... but you're blowing things out of proportion. Harmony is building on the established story... of SSS. (So the Black Dragon won't work. As awesome as it would have been for Shigema to overhaul the story again, that wasn't in the cards.) As for extra character development and such, I've noticed new scenes here and there for just that purpose - more than have been discussed. The new villains don't change Ghaleon (as long as we're talking SSS Ghaleon) - they barely even influence Ghaleon, save for a slight variation. There's no need to change the way you look at EB in light of their addition, either. Harmony is basically a game you liked on Playstation with a facelift. I assume you liked it, anyway. ^_^
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Aaron » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:27 pm

Jenner wrote:We do not need to change that, just as we do not alter our history books. We retell the story because it is real and it is awesome. That is the point of Lunar, it is concrete, it is real, you can know it. Why are we ashamed of this? Why are we adding things? Why are we changing things? Why can we not just tell the same story, prettier? Why can't we BUILD on the already established story, develop it more, develop the characters more, add more adventures within the core of the story? Is that really so hard? Really? What has become of video games? Why do we have to tack on all this additional rubbish that was never mentioned before ever?

"But Jenner!" you say. "Maybe this HAS always been here, maybe it was a deep, dark SECRET history! You are being too judgmental." Well I say fie on your deep dark secret black market history that the common man does not know. That is a -Dragon Diamond- excuse, we all know what this really is. It's a desperate frantic addition of New -Dragon Diamond- OMG to encourage people to buy a game they think they've already played. Y'know what? Those people who are buying Lunar because it's different than Lunar don't deserve Lunar. Those aren't the fans you want, -Fatal Hopper- those fans.


I totally agree with you, the minute after I finished watching the prologue scenes I thought that was a cheap cop out. I really don't like the new villian. But I consoled myself by the fact that the ending of the prologue leaves Dyne & Co. open for more adventure. So you could technically insert a story as to why Althena did what she did. But I don't have the game and I don't know Japanese so take that with a grain of salt.

Jenner wrote:And you know? I'm kind of bored of this. This deep dark exotic over-evil is not awesome, it is cliched. Not only that, but it distracts from the awesomeness that is Ghaleon, makes him seem insignificant. Makes him just a pawn, just a tiny speck of evil in the shadow of this way more evil thing. THE GHALEON I KNEW AND LOVE WOULD NEVER BE SOME INSIGNIFICANT SIDE VILLIAN. THE GHALEON I KNEW WOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN SOME GUY'S -Borgan-.

"But Jenner," you may say. "It's obviously alluding to Zophar!" You know what? Zophar was a SURPRISE. THAT WAS WHAT WAS SO GOOD ABOUT ZOPHAR. For the longest time, you weren't even sure Zophar existed. All you knew was that Leo thought Lucia was some destroyer of the world but she was hot and you were going to help her on her journey because she needed you. And when you finally begin to suspect that maybe the Zophar guy is serious business it's already too late because OMG He is real and he's taken over EVERYTHING and isn't that just so diabolical? And even then, you STILL haven't seen him. So he's still just this dark oppressive figure with control over everything. And when he finally does present him self, HOLY -Dragon Diamond- OMG WTF BBQ. That, my friends, is good story telling. That, is EPIC. That is AWESOME.

You know what ELSE is awesome? Something good, and divine, and righteous being turned and corrupted, going crazy and having to be killed to save the world. Y'know, the whole The Black Dragon Has Lost It! Are You A Bad Enough Dude To Save The World From Itself? That was Epic Lore, that was unique, that was original, that was deep and engrossing. It made us think, it made us wonder. Deities forbid we make the current day game-player question his concept of divine, of good and evil, heaven forbid they have to THINK.

Now, that isn't what happened at all. No no no, now some uber powerful dark -Fatal Hopper- has been pulled out of some -Fatal Hopper- ass for the sole purpose of being NEW and DIFFERENT and TOTALLY NOT A REMAKE.


Again I totally agree with you. I think that Aferiune (whatever he is called) messes with Lunar EB's story completely. It just doesn't make sense that Ghaleon would be the greater of the two evils now. And I really hate, I mean REALLY HATE how Aferiune had been friends with Althena and the Four Heroes before he turned to the dark side. That part is what really pisses me off.

I could forgive all that if they gave a better explaination as to why Dyne lost his powers and why Althena gave up her divinity...but no...

Also as a side note I have noticed in a lot of Japanese games and cinema they use the same archetypes for villians and heroes over and over and over again. So even if somthing seems new it really isn't be cause its essentially the same story in a new bag.

Jenner wrote:I was going to buy this game because it was Lunar. A lot of people are buying this game because it is Lunar.

But it is not Lunar.

-Fatal Hopper- you, L: SSH

SSH is the perfect anagram for you. Because you should be kept quiet. You should shut the hell up, and you should never exist.

I'm taking back my pre-order money.

Rest in Peace, Lunar.


I wouldn't go that far I still will get this and I probably will enjoy it even thought it is going to overstep onto other cannon. Shame on the developers for not caring about that.

I hope that Xseed doesn't compound these problems with crappy translations. I don't know how good they are I have played Xseed games before but I don't remember if they're good writers.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Temzin » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:38 am

Hum, this is a lot of sound and fury over a (okay) remake, but as mentioned above, Shigema's own take on his world is probably still the best way to deal with any disappointments, the part where he once said he thought of the different versions as being the results of different storytellers. Mr. PSP's Lunar may not have the dark vibe and sense of urgency of Mr. Mega CD's tale, nor the freshness of the streamlined Mr. Sega Saturn's story, but that may be okay. Knowing that a favorite version exists somewhere may be enough, especially when each edition is so different. I find it easier to be furious about the slipshod but otherwise unchanged Eternal Blue remakes than to fault HOSS's story changes (reports of its atrocious load times are another matter).

...Oh, and Mr. GBA doesn't tell so great a tale, but hey.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby NallOne » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:03 pm

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Jenner » Wed Dec 02, 2009 6:19 pm

I think this Shingema's version of Lunar is just too convoluted.

Airfar is just Pre-Ghaleon. He has Ghaleon's SAME -Fatal Hopper- STORY. So now, Ghaleon is jusy COPYING Aierfar. Ghaleon was friends with the four heroes before the madness too.

I'm sorry, this is lazy story-telling. It was unnecessary. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Story of Lunar told in Lunar: The Silver Star is the BEST version of Lunar that has ever been told.

It should have never been changed.

I like Fan-Fics too, but I don't pretend they're real and keep forcing them on the fans of the original material.

SSC's story is just that. Shinigema's Lunar Fan-Fic.
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Silver Phoenix » Wed Dec 02, 2009 9:37 pm

Unfortunately TSS is treated as though it never existed, and I agree that it was the best version regardless of SSS' additions even though it added more elements to the story. The soundtrack alone heightened the impact of TSS and added to the story much like a movie with an amazing score. SSS had some decent songs, but of course the story felt a lot different even though it was the same general plot.

I don't think anyone would be as affected as much by changes had their not been multiple remakes, and instead focused on new material for the series.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Aquaignis » Thu Dec 03, 2009 2:23 am

Jenner wrote:I think this Shingema's version of Lunar is just too convoluted.

Airfar is just Pre-Ghaleon. He has Ghaleon's SAME -Fatal Hopper- STORY. So now, Ghaleon is jusy COPYING Aierfar. Ghaleon was friends with the four heroes before the madness too.

I'm sorry, this is lazy story-telling. It was unnecessary. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Story of Lunar told in Lunar: The Silver Star is the BEST version of Lunar that has ever been told.

It should have never been changed.

I like Fan-Fics too, but I don't pretend they're real and keep forcing them on the fans of the original material.

SSC's story is just that. Shinigema's Lunar Fan-Fic.


So you want to just re-release the original game? (aside from remastering the soundtrack)
I agree with you about Aiferun's story, but it seems that it would be impossible to satisfy you, then. :(
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Kizyr » Thu Dec 03, 2009 4:34 am

Aquaignis wrote:So you want to just re-release the original game? (aside from remastering the soundtrack)
I agree with you about Aiferun's story, but it seems that it would be impossible to satisfy you, then. :(

Oh she's never satisfied... KF
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby WD RPG WD » Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:17 pm

lol, priceless :lol:

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby localflick » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:42 am

I think developers make changes to remakes in an attempt to appeal to people who have played the originals so that they can offer them a new experience. To use the Final Fantasy comparison each title had something slightly new to offer when re-released on the GBA like new job classes in FFV.

I agree that in this specific case they took it a bit too far, but I'll try it, and if I don't like the remake I won't buy it and go back to playing the original.

At this point I don't think it's possible to put out another Lunar game that people won't be upset about unless it's a direct port of the Sega CD titles, but then again people would be upset that it's not a new one.

To me it's simple. If you love the original Lunar games and treat the stories as something almost holy and sacred, then by all means love them and enjoy them as much as you can. If you feel like this, or any of the other remakes is blasphemous and ruining something you love then just leave it alone.

It is what it is.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Fri Dec 04, 2009 3:12 am

Sometimes, I wonder if the fact that they made the changes in the first place was Shigema's call or GameArt's?

In all honesty, I mostly prefer the original take, but I won't deny that SSSC did improve a few aspects of the original... it just went a bit too far. In my opinion, I like the fact that

1) Luna joins you on your quest. It gave you much more time with her and gave you a real attachment beyond "the girl waiting for you at home" shtick.
2) Villains were added. Not that more is ALWAYS better, but just Ghaleon and Xenobia was kind of boring. Royce and Phacia at least added a little variety when you kept bumping into them.
3) Removal of Ghaleon's "2nd form". It was silly and came WAY out of left field. It made no sense other than "All final bosses must have 2 forms! Make him a weird blue monster thing!"
4) Handling of Nash's betrayal. Yes, it was telegraphed a LOT more, so that's kind of a bummer. BUT, I like when and how he betrayed you, and the fact that he "stayed" on the other side longer. In the Sega CD original, this also felt like it came out of left field, and it was over before it even got started.

Make a version with these changes kept, but the rest being TSS continuity and it'd be my "perfect" version of the game, so to speak.
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Alunissage » Fri Dec 04, 2009 4:19 am

I was actually going to start a thread with what the perfect version of Lunar 1 would be in various people's eyes, and I almost replied to this thread with a summary of it before deciding to wait. I was thinking a little more about presentation and less about plot, though. Only have a few minutes right now, but let's split this off into its own thread later.

In the meantime, here are a few things off the top of my head (I want to reply to what you said, but no time). Not addressing plot stuff because it'd take too long.

From TSS: multitude of spells, including actually useful ones; music; overworld map; Temple of Althena; Marke; the land darkening; Myght's Tower structure; lack of Royce; plethora of misc items which were simply fun; Recovery & Goddess Canes; dungeons you could (mostly) return to; shrines instead of statues; recovering 4HP when low on health; healing sound effects; being able to run from battle; more attacks for Nash and Jess (?); Tempest having actual useful skills; Laike ditto; being able to level up Laike (hehe).

From SSS (and later LL and HSS): having Luna in party longer (but without the heavy-handed hints and outright plothole about her identity); range (rather than moves); cool accessories; (grudgingly) bromides, though I'd rather have a larger assortment closer to EBC's; spell list with costs and icons; items and secrets gotten by talking to the right people at the right time; bosses at least somewhat levelling up.

From LL: the absolutely adorable battle sprites (not as detailed as HSS's but far cuter); Kyle's boxing gloves and Luna's frying pans; animation on the in-town screens (ex. the laundry-drying machine in Iluk); Red Chests like the one in Ramus's shop which contains different things depending on when you open it; monster cards (heck, I wouldn't mind some variation on the ones in DS as long as they didn't destroy the balance); secret areas with bonus stuff; no voices.

From HSS: most music (since TSS had far fewer pieces and there's likely room enough in the game for both sets of music); gorgeous location graphics, esp. woods and rooms; shopping system; improved arts system (but still needs lots o' balance); lovely detailed sprites, if not always as cute as Legend's; much faster multiple attacks.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Temzin » Fri Dec 04, 2009 5:10 am

This is definitely worthy of its own thread, and could sort of provide a more cheerful counterpoint to this one. I obsess over TSS-SSS a lot in my head, even if I hardly ever get to talk to people about it in real life. Which is to say, never.

The specifics could go in the new thread, but a nice way of putting it would be that I wish I could take some of the "darkness" from TSS's frenetic, disorganized, uneven mixture and put it into the much more polished but overly-bright SSS. While TSS has kind of grimy graphics, and some parts are just total misfires (Ghaleon form 2 [er, and form 1, where the "Magic Emperor" karate chops you instead of using...magic], utter lack of challenge post-Red Dragon Cave), the virtually manic energy of the unpolished new Mega CD game is great.

Basically, the opening animation is an exact distillation of this and of the moods that SSS does not have. The lightning over the Goddess Tower, the sense of darkness everywhere (blackened world post-Mechanical Castle, destroyed towns, kidnappings, brutality at Ruid) that stemmed from a much more malevolent Ghaleon (note that I otherwise perfer him in SSS more). Oh, and disco.

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Silver Phoenix » Fri Dec 04, 2009 7:44 am

You forgot the fuxing awesome musical score that also lent more emotion to the game (TSS) and the freaky ass scary Weird Woods/Meribian Sewer music.

Ohh, and did I forget to mention the depressing as Fluk piano theme?! *Duh Duh Dun Dun Dunn Dunnn *dies* I leave the rest to your memory, or the Mega/Sega CD, or *choke* an emulator.

I must again reiterate that if you didn't have your Lunar cherry popped by the Sega CD version of Lunar: The Silver Star you are missing a magical experience. There is no other way to truly experience the series from past to present.

Oh, and for whatever reason I want to change the name of this thread topic to...

This Ass Can Kiss My Game

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Jenner » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:33 am

Kizyr wrote:
Aquaignis wrote:So you want to just re-release the original game? (aside from remastering the soundtrack)
I agree with you about Aiferun's story, but it seems that it would be impossible to satisfy you, then. :(

Oh she's never satisfied... KF


Oh you can satisfy me baby. If you could last longer than three minutes.
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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby Aaron » Sat Dec 05, 2009 2:53 am

WOW...

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Re: This Game Can Kiss My Ass.

Postby WD RPG WD » Sat Dec 05, 2009 4:43 am

Jenner wrote:
Kizyr wrote:
Aquaignis wrote:So you want to just re-release the original game? (aside from remastering the soundtrack)
I agree with you about Aiferun's story, but it seems that it would be impossible to satisfy you, then. :(

Oh she's never satisfied... KF


Oh you can satisfy me baby. If you could last longer than three minutes.



Hey! Thats MY man you're messin' with. And he can most definately last longer than 3 minutes! Unless we are playing Mean Bean machine, that is, in which he ussually only lasts 30 seconds before I lay the hammer down. :x


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