Jess's Mom

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Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:35 pm

I'm replaying TSS, and in Meribia it occurred to me: has there ever been any official explanation of what Jess Alkirk's mom/Hell Mel's wife died from? In any version of Lunar.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:49 pm

100% not in any of the games, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were never mentioned in any other supplementary material either. It's one of those things that honestly I doubt many (including myself) ever thought to question. This is sadly something the writer probably deemed an unimportant detail, so I suppose *insert your preferred backstory here*
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:56 pm

Ok, thanks for the insight, Nobiyuki77. Though if anyone finds out otherwise from the supplementary material, please do post.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:00 pm

My guess is that not having Jessica's mother in the story was for the sake of convenience. They wanted her to largely take after her father and it was easier to write that narrative if the mother simply weren't around... or something. It's a little weak I admit but that's likely the reason.

The same desire for convenience likely led to Mia only having a mother in the story; although that one makes more sense as the whole "Mia's mom's being controlled by Xenobia" plot point would be a touch more difficult to take if her father were around. It would make it especially less likely that Mia would turn to Alex and crew for help when she could turn to her father for help.
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Alunissage » Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:39 am

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I've never seen anything about what she died from. I *think* there's a mention of Jessica being with her mom, though, so that would rule out childbirth. The Japanese TSS guide has some backstory Shiva Indis summarized for us years ago (2005!) about Mel as a pirate and how he and Relina (she's given a name in SSH) met: she was the daughter of the governor of Meribia and was kidnapped by someone other than Mel to use as leverage against her father.

Incidentally, in TSS Mia does cry out "Papa..." when she's ill in Pao, though I don't remember if that's the case in the Japanese game. The Vheen manga shows some generations of Ausas including at least one father, but it's clear that the women are the important ones. It might be interesting to explore why that is the case sometime, like something about Vane being entrusted to the guardianship of a specific bloodline.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:43 am

Man, I need to revist TSS at some point; I'd completely forgotten about that. I suppose Mia's father could just be much less "important" in Vane society or something.
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Alunissage » Mon Mar 05, 2018 3:45 am

Well, it's only one line, easily missable. She says it after you return from Grimzol's Cave but before you use the Goddess Seal to cure the disease. I think that's the only reference to her father.

In the garden at the top of the Grindery Mia remarks on how kind Ghaleon was to her when she was a child, which makes me wonder if Dyne's apparent death occurred after that. I don't think it's ever established exactly when that happened, especially since it's not tied plotwise to Luna's birth the way it is in the remakes. Especially since Alex's father tells him (in the Talon Mine, I think) that Dyne is who brought Luna to them, which he probably wouldn't if that had happened after Dyne was thought to be dead. Laike's revelation happens after that point.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:01 am

I believe Luna was brought to the Noas as a baby along with Nall IIRC, which would me Alex would be at most 1-2 years old? Mia's about their age too so it would definitely have to be afterward I think. You're right in that in the OG TSS Dyne's power sacrifice is only specified to be when he defeated the Black Dragon, but doesn't state *when* that happened. It's kinda up in the air. :/
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Kizyr » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:58 pm

I can pretty much confirm that there's no reference to how Jessica's mother died in any of the source material (games, novels, manga, etc. -- though it doesn't rule out offhand comments in interviews, 'cause there could always be one or two more floating around).

If I had to guess, I'd say it was some sort of illness rather than a violent event. Only because based on the usual tropes of other JRPGs: (a) violent events that lead to a death of a major character's parents lead to some kind of story arc or redemption story, (b) disappearances always get commented on at some point, and (c) any other early death is an illness. Since there was no story arc or mention, that just leaves (c). Just an educated guess though, nothing official. KF
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Alunissage » Fri Mar 09, 2018 12:54 am

I took a peek through the TSS Meribia and Mel's Mansion text a few nights ago and confirm that no reason is given. Someone does say that she died when Jess was very young. SSS might have comments from Jess on whether she actually remembers her mom, but it's much harder for me to check that.

Regarding character ages, my vague recollection is that Jess is 17, TSS Alex is also about 17 (15 in SSS), Mia is 16, and Luna of course is 15. I pretty much ignore ages given above about 17 because they're always highly implausible, but that clustering seems reasonable. It would also imply that the Four Heroes' heroism happened at least a couple of years before Luna and Nall joined Alex's household.

I'll have to look around to see if a time for when the Black Dragon went insane is given. We know that the Frontier was cut off from the rest ten years before the events of TSS but not how long before that that Dyne lost his power. (One thing that interested me in Lunar Legend is that Mel and Lemia are shown to also be there when Althena is reborn, so they both knew as well. It's not so clear in other games.)

Another thing that isn't clear is why Ghaleon decided to make his overt move only after Alex shows up. The first thing that comes to mind is that he had to act before another Dragonmaster was established -- but likely Lemia was already replaced by Xenobla by the time Alex came to his attention. We don't know for sure, but Ghaleon had already sent Nash to Caldor for some reason -- I don't remember if it's specified why, only that Nash knows "his secret purpose" -- so he was already doing something. His diary talks about calling Xenobia over to impersonate Lemia, since Lemia had declined to cooperate with him, but that must be an existing relationship, since the people of Cadin say that he's always been "out" as the Magic Emperor there.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:32 pm

Well it looks like there is no canon reason given, thank you all.
Alunissage wrote:Another thing that isn't clear is why Ghaleon decided to make his overt move only after Alex shows up. The first thing that comes to mind is that he had to act before another Dragonmaster was established -- but likely Lemia was already replaced by Xenobla by the time Alex came to his attention. We don't know for sure, but Ghaleon had already sent Nash to Caldor for some reason -- I don't remember if it's specified why, only that Nash knows "his secret purpose" -- so he was already doing something. His diary talks about calling Xenobia over to impersonate Lemia, since Lemia had declined to cooperate with him, but that must be an existing relationship, since the people of Cadin say that he's always been "out" as the Magic Emperor there.


Ghaleon needed Alex to show him here Quark was so he could kill/enslave him. The knew each other beforehand "I haven't seen you since we lost Dyne..." (Quark) but it's never stated where they met.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Sonic# » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:32 am

^ See, on the one hand I've thought that explanation as well, that Nash was looking for either Luna or Quark, and that Ghaleon needed to find Quark in order to be able to act.

On the other hand, why wouldn't Ghaleon already know (generally) where Quark was? Something about that trip feels like an excuse to get Luna and Quark in the same place and kidnap them simultaneously. Maybe - and I'm not sure I can support this solidly - Ghaleon would have had a harder time if he kidnapped Luna sooner without throwing off the other powers in Lunar. Quark could then be warned and in turn warn the other dragons, Vane would notice and perhaps act, and so on. Once Xenobia et. al. had their cover blown Ghaleon had to be the one to take Luna, and he had to find an isolated place to do so. Going one step ahead and nabbing the first dragon was a part of that plan.
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:11 am

Sonic# wrote:^ See, on the one hand I've thought that explanation as well, that Nash was looking for either Luna or Quark, and that Ghaleon needed to find Quark in order to be able to act.

On the other hand, why wouldn't Ghaleon already know (generally) where Quark was? Something about that trip feels like an excuse to get Luna and Quark in the same place and kidnap them simultaneously. Maybe - and I'm not sure I can support this solidly - Ghaleon would have had a harder time if he kidnapped Luna sooner without throwing off the other powers in Lunar. Quark could then be warned and in turn warn the other dragons, Vane would notice and perhaps act, and so on. Once Xenobia et. al. had their cover blown Ghaleon had to be the one to take Luna, and he had to find an isolated place to do so. Going one step ahead and nabbing the first dragon was a part of that plan.


Well the other Dragons are dead to begin with in The Silver Star, not mention Xenobia kidnaps Luna there. In any version, I don't think it's ever stated that Ghaleon came directly to Quark's cave (prior to the killing/enslavement scenes). I double checked the Vane Airship Stories, after Ghaleon and Dyne meet in part 1, then they go to Vane in part 2. I didn't find any references to Quark in part 1. Going back to TSS, Alex's dad helped Dyne in the Dragon caves, then left to stop holding him back, but I don't remember any reference to Ghaleon being there too. Notwithstanding potential continuity difference with the mangas, I'm guessing by the time Ghaleon and Dyne met he had already gotten the White Dragon Wings, and he had no pressing reason to return. I think Quark met up with them prior to the fight against the Insane Black Dragon/Althena becoming human, in some other locale. He can fly after all, lol. Ghaleon probably knew Quark lived in a cave near Burg, but that still leaves room for error, especially with the lower level of technology in Lunar.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Alunissage » Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:41 am

The manga definitely fit only with the SSS continuity, not the TSS.

I don't think anyone knows the Red and Blue dragons were dead until Alex gets to them, so the exact chronology of when they were knocked out is unclear. Although, I just checked the TSS game text and Quark does not tell Alex to find the other dragons -- just to collect the other dragon equipment. I think he does mention the other dragons specifically in SSSC, telling Alex to find his "brothers".

Wait, now that I think of it, maybe it's in the TSS cutscene. I don't have an easy way to check that to hand, unless I want to go all the way over to where I keep my game discs and connect an optical drive to my computer and listen to track 37.

To be clearer about my question of chronology: I know Ghaleon needs Alex to guide him to the dragon cave, apparently. But it seems that Ghaleon was already taking irrevocable action before meeting Alex, namely, freeing Xenobia and getting her to impersonate Lemia. Nash, too, was already on Caldor Isle when Alex meets him. Unless Ghaleon has some way of determining from afar that someone's been given a dragon ring, he'd have no idea that a new dragonmaster was about to show up. Yet, Nash was looking for something -- presumably either the location of the dragon cave or good singers, but I don't think he says either way. Of course, once he meets Alex and Luna, he learns of both -- I would guess the dragon cave location was his goal and he talked Alex into coming to Vane to bring him to Ghaleon's attention.

Ghaleon only meets Luna very briefly in TSS, and not when she's singing. He notes her resemblance, but he's not the one who captures her; Xenobia is. The text also suggests that both of them were looking for the Goddess as threat neutralization, rather than having a specific role for her. While Ghaleon uses Althena's power to strike Vane from the Grindery, it's not clear that he always had that in mind rather than was just opportunistically using her since he located her. He knows Althena's not in her tower, but that doesn't seem to be the linchpin of his plan.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Erroneous » Sun Mar 18, 2018 8:19 am

Alunissage wrote:Wait, now that I think of it, maybe it's in the TSS cutscene. I don't have an easy way to check that to hand, unless I want to go all the way over to where I keep my game discs and connect an optical drive to my computer and listen to track 37.


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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:05 am

Alunissage wrote:The manga definitely fit only with the SSS continuity, not the TSS.

Why do you say that? Chronologically it takes place before the Black Dragon went insane OR Althena became human voluntarily.

As for Track 37, it shows up on my track listing the scene where Ghaleon kills Quark, so here you go:

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Alunissage » Tue Mar 20, 2018 6:30 am

Shinto-Cetra wrote:
Alunissage wrote:The manga definitely fit only with the SSS continuity, not the TSS.

Why do you say that? Chronologically it takes place before the Black Dragon went insane OR Althena became human voluntarily.

Because the Vheen manga was written to go with the release of SSS. (The mangaka, Akari Funato, also designed Royce and Phacia and some or all of the bromides, and "contributed ideas to" the scene of Althena's rebirth.) It doesn't directly contradict the TSS storyline, that I recall, but it doesn't support it, either.

One of the TSS NPCs says that Dyne and Ghaleon had a contest to see who would become Dragonmaster, and Dyne won by a narrow margin. That might suggest that Ghaleon had met Quark at an earlier stage, or it could mean that Dyne won two coin flips out of three and went to get the dragon wings by himself. For that matter, he may have started collecting dragon equipment with a different dragon -- he gets a ring from Quark, but the ring is not part of the equipment. I think in TSS it disappears after Mia uses it to break the spell on the Silver Spire.

As for Track 37, it shows up on my track listing the scene where Ghaleon kills Quark, so here you go:

Yes, I knew track 37 was that scene; that's why I mentioned it. But it doesn't mention finding the other dragons, which is what I was wondering.

(Edited to add: I was snippier there than I probably should have been. Sorry.)

Sonic# wrote:Once Xenobia et. al. had their cover blown Ghaleon had to be the one to take Luna, and he had to find an isolated place to do so. Going one step ahead and nabbing the first dragon was a part of that plan.

Xenobia can travel -- she kidnaps Lily, the Thieves' Guildmaster's granddaughter -- so her unmasking wouldn't have kept her from also capturing Luna. And indeed, she DOES capture Luna in TSS, simply as one of many singers she collects, not specifically identified as Althena. In SSS, Luna is still in the party when Alex escorts Ghaleon to Quark, and Ghaleon is already pretty sure she's Althena; he just asks Quark to confirm it. No particular reason for Xenobia to be there, I suppose, while in TSS she's capturing the Burg villagers and draining the river while Ghaleon is taking care of Quark.

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shiva Indis » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:56 pm

Alunissage wrote:To be clearer about my question of chronology: I know Ghaleon needs Alex to guide him to the dragon cave, apparently. But it seems that Ghaleon was already taking irrevocable action before meeting Alex, namely, freeing Xenobia and getting her to impersonate Lemia. Nash, too, was already on Caldor Isle when Alex meets him. Unless Ghaleon has some way of determining from afar that someone's been given a dragon ring, he'd have no idea that a new dragonmaster was about to show up. Yet, Nash was looking for something -- presumably either the location of the dragon cave or good singers, but I don't think he says either way. Of course, once he meets Alex and Luna, he learns of both -- I would guess the dragon cave location was his goal and he talked Alex into coming to Vane to bring him to Ghaleon's attention.


I just wanna say, I'm loving the direction that this thread went down. And it seems like this is another example of how Ghaleon is kind of a plot device with an interesting veneer of characterization. His actions are more designed to give the player breadcrumbs to follow than to be make sense, and that's pretty typical, but I'm so interested in him that I try to fit together pieces that just don't fit together.

What if Ghaleon just wanted to send Nash on a snipe hunt, though?

"Hello there, emotionally stunted high school junior who I have wrapped around my finger, I have a top secret mission for you. It will take months and involve trans-ocean travel. Report to me on every cute middle school girl with a good signing voice you find."

Most people would admit to the joke before their gullible friend left town. But Ghaleon's not most people.
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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:08 pm

Shiva Indis wrote:"Hello there, emotionally stunted high school junior who I have wrapped around my finger, I have a top secret mission for you. It will take months and involve trans-ocean travel. Report to me on every cute middle school girl with a good signing voice you find."

Lololol! This is even more entertaining when you imagine the Mission Impossible theme juxtaposed with Ghaleon's voice XD

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Re: Jess's Mom

Postby Kizyr » Sun Apr 01, 2018 5:03 pm

Shiva Indis wrote:"Hello there, emotionally stunted high school junior who I have wrapped around my finger, I have a top secret mission for you. It will take months and involve trans-ocean travel. Report to me on every cute middle school girl with a good signing voice you find."

Most people would admit to the joke before their gullible friend left town. But Ghaleon's not most people.

Y'know, I also wouldn't put it past him for Ghaleon to send Nash away on a pointless mission just to get him the hell away from Mia. He could've figured that his creepiness was bothering Mia but she was way too polite to say anything about it. ...though this is also the person who tried to initiate an even more uncomfortable relationship with Luna, so... KF
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