About Ghaleon

[EurAsianGirl]

You know I always hear Lunar fans saying how Ghaleon's motivations were better in the Sega CD version and that the SSS version made him more of a typical villian.

I disagree, I actually feel they fleshed out his motivations much better in the Complete version then in the Sega CD version, and here's why.

In the Sega CD version Ghaleon just wants to become a God because he feels that Althena failed the world and caused the demise of Dyne, however I felt that in the Complete versions he doesn't so much as want to be a God as he just wants to get revenge on Dyne and Althena because he was in love with Althena (Or Dyne, if you want to think that way) but his feelings were unrequited and it is quite obvious that Dyne and Althena loved each other and that's why Althena decided to become a human.

You can clearly see in that Anime cutscene when they explain Althena and Dyne's past (The one when Althena is being reborn as Luna) you can clearly see Ghaleon is jealous and sees the love between Althena and Dyne. His whole, "Dyne what can you see that I can't?!?!" line is him asking why Althena chose Dyne over him and why his best friend betrayed him.

Honestly, I think he used the whole "The world needs a God" thing as an excuse to mask his true reasons for becoming evil, the PSP version hints to this even more with the prolouge. Honestly I'm just surprised that not a lot of fans have picked up on the subtleties of this and take Ghaleon's reasons for becoming evil at face value. You gotta look deeper people!! Especially with all the hints we've gotten!!

Personally this is why I love how they portrayed Ghaleon in the Complete versions, because his reason for villianary is quite realistic and human. He became evil because of unrequited love, he was driven all along by love which is what the entire Lunar series is based on (Well that and the power of humanity)

[Alunissage]

In the Sega CD version Ghaleon just wants to become a God because he feels that Althena failed the world and caused the demise of Dyne, however I felt that in the Complete versions he doesn't so much as want to be a God as he just wants to get revenge on Dyne and Althena because he was in love with Althena (Or Dyne, if you want to think that way) but his feelings were unrequited and it is quite obvious that Dyne and Althena loved each other and that's why Althena decided to become a human.

You can clearly see in that Anime cutscene when they explain Althena and Dyne's past (The one when Althena is being reborn as Luna) you can clearly see Ghaleon is jealous and sees the love between Althena and Dyne. His whole, "Dyne what can you see that I can't?!?!" line is him asking why Althena chose Dyne over him and why his best friend betrayed him.

It's not at all obvious that Dyne and Althena loved each other in any way that would be exclusionary of Ghaleon (e.g., a romantic love). Your conclusion of this actually illustrates the argument that Ghaleon's motivations were stronger in the SegaCD version very well -- it's clear in the SCD game that Ghaleon resented Althena for Dyne's death, or at the very least for Dyne's loss of power and his role as Dragonmaster. The SSS scenes muddied this strong relationship between Dyne and Ghaleon by tying Althena's rebirth as Luna to Dyne's loss of his Dragonmaster stature (there's no connection between Luna's existence and Dyne's "death" in the SCD game; it's just a routine reincarnation of Althena's), so that some players such as yourself end up reading the relationship between Althena and Dyne as of comparable strength and relevance. But note that Althena is reborn as a baby, not a peer of Dyne's, and is parked with a family with a young son who is then foreseen to become the next dragonmaster. (Another little hole in the SSS continuity -- if Althena is stepping down permanently from the start, why would there even BE another dragonmaster, ever?)

In SSS, Dyne and Althena do have a bond that excludes Ghaleon, but it's the belief that humanity would be better off without a guiding deity. Ghaleon is a priest at that time -- it's not too obvious within the NA game itself, but it's indicated subtly by his clothing in the flashback scene and more bluntly in other (Japanese) Lunar materials -- and it's not surprising that with that background he'd have strong feelings about the necessity of a goddess for people to pray to; Althena's rebirth as a human is essentially heresy.

Note that Akari Funato, who said in an interview that she contributed ideas for this cutscene, is also the author/artist for the Vheen manga, which show strongly that Dyne is much younger than Ghaleon and sees him as a mentor even though his enthusiasm takes him elsewhere. Dyne taking sides with someone else and disagreeing with Ghaleon in so fundamental a matter as the necessity of Althena's existence as a goddess would seem like quite a betrayal of Ghaleon as the role of wise elder to Dyne, and the fact that it's Althena with whom Dyne is siding against her own priest in this would really tear him apart; Althena is probably about the only person Ghaleon would see as his superior. So he takes action to resolve this the only way he can, by reviving Althena in a way to require her to use her power as he sees fit (since her rejection of her goddess role showed that she wasn't fit by his standards), in, I think, the honest belief that that's the right thing to do for humanity -- even though his closest friendship is sacrificed. Seeing all that as just a love triangle is the surface, shallow reading!

That trust in humanity is what Dyne sees that Ghaleon does not. In no way does Dyne turn his back on Ghaleon as a person; it's Ghaleon who begs Dyne to stop and who turns away from Dyne after Althena is reborn. The look that Althena and Dyne exchange has more to do with the sacrifice that each is about to make of all of their power and status and also that Althena has to trust Dyne to take care of both her and the world, since she's not going to be in a position to do anything about it or even to know the nature of her own choice after she is reborn. I will grant the possibility that Ghaleon thought that this bond from shared purpose between Althena and Dyne surpassed Dyne's regard for Ghaleon, but I still don't think that was likely to be romantic.

The remakes, of course, indicate that Ghaleon was always aware that Dyne never died; the original does not state when Ghaleon learned that Dyne was alive or even if he ever thought that Dyne was dead. Actually, the text indicates that Ghaleon's anger was largely that Dyne lost all his magic doing Althena's work:

(Roof of Myght's lab)
Ghaleon: Alex...it's been a while. ...And Laike...
Soon I will have the goddess, and indeed the entire world,
in the palm of my hand.
Join me again, Laike! Using the Goddess' power,
the magic power you lost can even be restored!
Laike: Power gained by those means is worthless! Can't you understand that, Ghaleon?
Ghaleon: Ah, yes, but once the world is mine,
I will define what has meaning and what doesn't!

In Marke, NPC in SW house: Dragonmaster Dyne received orders from Althena to seal away the Black Dragon. / In order to complete this task, all of Dyne's magic power was depleted.
- Ghaleon was Master Dyne's friend, and helped him to seal away the Black Dragon. / But Ghaleon never forgave the Goddess for giving Dyne such an impossible task.

NPC in SW Marke: The only person Ghaleon ever respected was Master Dyne. / After he died, Ghaleon changed completely…

(Reza)
Laike: I lost all my magic power when I sealed off the Black Dragon.
I barely survived at all! And now…
All of my ability as dragonmaster has been lost.
But I love my new life as Laike: Easygoing guy.
I just can't stand to see Ghaleon ruin everything I love about this world! [button]
A dragonmaster is just a servant to Goddess Althena.
Ghaleon was never cut out to be a 'servant.' ….But this is too much.


You're mistaken that Ghaleon resents Althena for "failing the world" in that game, by the way. He only blames her for Dyne's fate:

ALEX, I WAS THINKING...

YOU KNOW, THE DRAGON TRIBE
AND THE GODDESS ALTHENA ARE
CENTRAL TO OUR WORLD.

SO, IF THEY ARE SO POWERFUL,
WHY DID MY FRIEND DYNE HAVE
TO SACRIFICE HIMSELF
TO PROTECT THEM?

SHOULDN'T THEY HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO SAVE THEMSELVES?

THAT IS, WITHOUT CALLING ON
A MAN...A DRAGONMASTER, TO
DO THEIR DIRTY WORK?

I THINK SO, AND THAT'S WHY
I'LL NEVER FORGIVE THEM.

THEY DON'T DESERVE TO RULE
OUR WORLD...I DO!

Unfortunately, I don't have so much comparable SSSC scene text to hand. But here's a little from early in the game, when Alex, Luna, and Ghaleon are returning to Caldor Isle:

Ghaleon: So, tell me...what drives you to become the Dragonmaster? What leads you to attempt what so many others before you have tried and failed to achieve?
Alex [startled] Well...
Luna: ... ... ...
Alex: I want to protect the people of our world...and the people I care about.
Ghaleon: How...very noble of you. But the Dragonmaster's power is meant for much more than mere protection... And the magnitude of his responsibility to wield that power well is immeasurable. ...May I ask another question of you?
Alex [startled]: Of...of course, sir. [Ghaleon, who had been approaching Alex, turns around.]
Ghaleon: If you had to choose between the survival of the one you cared about the most... Or the lives of everyone in our world... Which would it be? One, or many? Love, or duty? [he turns back to face Alex and steps back]
Alex [shocked] How...how could anyone make that choice?
Ghaleon: A Dragonmaster is forced to make such choices every day of his existence... [he walks away a bit] But we're getting considerably ahead of ourselves, aren't we? You're not a Dragonmaster yet. Not even close. Think about my question during your travels, boy. The closer you are to becoming a Dragonmaster, the more important it is to answer...

This bit from when he meets Quark is kind of interesting:

Quark: You have returned, Alex. And even stronger than when I last beheld you... [Ghaleon steps closer] Ghaleon... It has been many years since I last saw you.
Ghaleon: Fifteen, to be precise, Quark. Not since that dark day when dear Dragonmaster Dyne...
Quark: Ah yes, I remember all too well your disappointment... [Ghaleon approaches more closely, and Luna and Alex move to the side to allow him.]
Ghaleon: Quark...I have a question to ask of you. [sad] This girl...the one they call "Luna"...is she the child born that day?
Alex [shocked]: ... ... ...
Luna [normal]: ... ... ...
Quark: Truth is a dangerous thing to some, Ghaleon. If you knew the truth, perhaps it would...
Ghaleon: Our world is on the verge of chaos, dear Quark... And I must know if the cause is what I suspect it to be. Tell me, Quark. Tell me the truth. I deserve to know. [pause]
Quark: You were the Dragonmaster's best friend, Ghaleon. If he trusted you with his life, I can trust you with the truth... [pause] ...Yes. Luna is the one. [Music stops. Ghaleon looks at Luna, then turns away.]
Ghaleon: ... ... ... [he turns to Quark]
Quark: Surely you understand why Dyne kept this from you... Ghaleon?
Ghaleon (voice): [maniacal laughter] Oh, then the time has finally come. My coming-out party can finally begin. Send in the clowns... [his sprite transforms into the Magic Emperor]

Note that Quark refers to Ghaleon's disappointment, not his heartbreak. I wonder if the Japanese is so offhand.

Then there's also this bit when Laike talks to Alex at the monument:

Laike: Dragonmaster Dyne would be proud of your bravery, Alex. He would marvel at the strength that you have nurtured in your heart. [pause] Alex, do you know what killed Dyne?
Alex: No...
Laike: As with many, Dyne fell victim to love. He swore to her that he would do anything for the woman he fancied. When the time came to protect her heart, he used all the power he had. And the Dyne everyone knew as the greatest Dragonmaster ever...perished.
Alex: ... ... ....
Laike [slight change of expression, eyes crinkled a little]: Ho, ho, ho! Love is never an easy thing, Alex! [normal] but you say you want to help Luna...so you must become the Dragonmaster. Because to save her, you will fight a stronger opponent than Dyne ever faced...
Alex [cheerful]: I...I'll do it, Laike!
Laike: Ho, hah, hah...good answer. Here, Alex, I have something to cheer you up...
Nall [annoyed]: After that depressing story about Dyne, I hope so!

I'm not inclined to take the face value of this but rather to look deeper and note that Laike is framing Dyne's motivations in a way to parallel Alex's new quest to free Luna (which Alex has just avowed in the previous lines). Naturally he doesn't want to give away the exact nature of the "woman he fancied" nor the manner in which he served her. And it would seem a very logical part of becoming a Dragonmaster to swear to do all that the Goddess commanded for love of her, comparable to a ceremony of knighthood.

[Nobiyuki77]

I love Lunar deeply. I have played the games several times over the course of over 15 years now.

But I will never be as well-versed in the ways of Lunar as Alun is. :-/

[Dragonmaster Lou]

I love Lunar deeply. I have played the games several times over the course of over 15 years now.

But I will never be as well-versed in the ways of Lunar as Alun is. :-/

Agreed. Her body of knowledge is pretty darned impressive.

[Shiva Indis]

The appeal of TSS Ghaleon lies in between being an interesting character and being impossible to fully wrap your head around. We can't make concrete claims about how justifiable his position is; we don't know what he knew or when knew it. Fans often ascribe him broader motivations than the game actually supports. Open ended storytelling makes for lots of good conversations. Like this one.

On the other hand, everything you need to understand remake Ghaleon is there for the taking, and it ties in to the game's theme's really well. That's really satisfying writing.

One thing I want to note is that the whole "Ghaleon was in love with Althena" thing was all but written in by WD. It's not in the original dialog, at least.

[Sonic#]

^ In which case, I could see someone being dissatisfied with TSS Ghaleon because it crosses the line from "open ended storytelling" into "sloppy writing." Now, I think it falls into the former case, since the story was well-developed for an RPG of its time, but that's a rather slipshod reason.

I prefer SSSC's Ghaleon for purely personal reasons. I couldn't hope to definitively defend him on aesthetic grounds. I would point out that Alunissage's argument indicates that SSSC incorporates as much open ended storytelling as its predecessor - it's the open ends that differ, and the possibilities that can be projected on those ends.

[EurAsianGirl]

The appeal of TSS Ghaleon lies in between being an interesting character and being impossible to fully wrap your head around. We can't make concrete claims about how justifiable his position is; we don't know what he knew or when knew it. Fans often ascribe him broader motivations than the game actually supports. Open ended storytelling makes for lots of good conversations. Like this one.

On the other hand, everything you need to understand remake Ghaleon is there for the taking, and it ties in to the game's theme's really well. That's really satisfying writing.

One thing I want to note is that the whole "Ghaleon was in love with Althena" thing was all but written in by WD. It's not in the original dialog, at least.

0.0 Are you serious?! It was written in by WD are you sure?? Because I know in the new Harmony version they also hint to Ghaleon being jealous and possibly having loved Althena but obviously that wasn't translated by Working Designs. Also, Shiva Indis..... you basically ruined your own argument by mentioning that scene when Dyne admits to having fallen in love. He wasn't creating a "parallel" between him and Alex (or maybe he was but that wasn't the main point) He truly meant it. Dyne truly was in love with Althena and thats been proven not just in the Complete version but also in the new Harmony version as well even more clearly. Hell how much more canon do you want it to be? Dyne practically spits it in your face in that scene and well with the way Ghaleon acts, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what went down between those three.

Also don't forget the Lunar series in general is centered around love and what love does to people. Honestly Ghaleon's evil motivations being because of a spurned love fits so well into the series and the whole series's theme.

[Nobiyuki77]

The appeal of TSS Ghaleon lies in between being an interesting character and being impossible to fully wrap your head around. We can't make concrete claims about how justifiable his position is; we don't know what he knew or when knew it. Fans often ascribe him broader motivations than the game actually supports. Open ended storytelling makes for lots of good conversations. Like this one.

On the other hand, everything you need to understand remake Ghaleon is there for the taking, and it ties in to the game's theme's really well. That's really satisfying writing.

One thing I want to note is that the whole "Ghaleon was in love with Althena" thing was all but written in by WD. It's not in the original dialog, at least.

0.0 Are you serious?! It was written in by WD are you sure?? Because I know in the new Harmony version they also hint to Ghaleon being jealous and possibly having loved Althena but obviously that wasn't translated by Working Designs. Also, Shiva Indis..... you basically ruined your own argument by mentioning that scene when Dyne admits to having fallen in love. He wasn't creating a "parallel" between him and Alex (or maybe he was but that wasn't the main point) He truly meant it. Dyne truly was in love with Althena and thats been proven not just in the Complete version but also in the new Harmony version as well even more clearly. Hell how much more canon do you want it to be? Dyne practically spits it in your face in that scene and well with the way Ghaleon acts, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what went down between those three.

Also don't forget the Lunar series in general is centered around love and what love does to people. Honestly Ghaleon's evil motivations being because of a spurned love fits so well into the series and the whole series's theme.

I can see what you mean with the prologue bit; there does seem to be a possible connection added to Harmony. But in Shiva's defense, the XSEED translation was a bit of a mix of the original WD translation and new bits as well, so some of that carried over as well.

Well, here's hoping that Shigema gets to write that 4 Heroes story he's stated he really wants to do. Will probably answer those questions once and for all.

[EurAsianGirl]

The appeal of TSS Ghaleon lies in between being an interesting character and being impossible to fully wrap your head around. We can't make concrete claims about how justifiable his position is; we don't know what he knew or when knew it. Fans often ascribe him broader motivations than the game actually supports. Open ended storytelling makes for lots of good conversations. Like this one.

On the other hand, everything you need to understand remake Ghaleon is there for the taking, and it ties in to the game's theme's really well. That's really satisfying writing.

One thing I want to note is that the whole "Ghaleon was in love with Althena" thing was all but written in by WD. It's not in the original dialog, at least.

0.0 Are you serious?! It was written in by WD are you sure?? Because I know in the new Harmony version they also hint to Ghaleon being jealous and possibly having loved Althena but obviously that wasn't translated by Working Designs. Also, Shiva Indis..... you basically ruined your own argument by mentioning that scene when Dyne admits to having fallen in love. He wasn't creating a "parallel" between him and Alex (or maybe he was but that wasn't the main point) He truly meant it. Dyne truly was in love with Althena and thats been proven not just in the Complete version but also in the new Harmony version as well even more clearly. Hell how much more canon do you want it to be? Dyne practically spits it in your face in that scene and well with the way Ghaleon acts, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what went down between those three.

Also don't forget the Lunar series in general is centered around love and what love does to people. Honestly Ghaleon's evil motivations being because of a spurned love fits so well into the series and the whole series's theme.

I can see what you mean with the prologue bit; there does seem to be a possible connection added to Harmony. But in Shiva's defense, the XSEED translation was a bit of a mix of the original WD translation and new bits as well, so some of that carried over as well.

Well, here's hoping that Shigema gets to write that 4 Heroes story he's stated he really wants to do. Will probably answer those questions once and for all.

What's your take on Ghaleon then Do you agree with me and think there was unrequited love going on or do you not think so...

Also I wouldn't hold your breath on the long awaited Lunar 3 seeing as one of its key members joust passed away. -.-

[Nobiyuki77]

What's your take on Ghaleon then Do you agree with me and think there was unrequited love going on or do you not think so...

Also I wouldn't hold your breath on the long awaited Lunar 3 seeing as one of its key members joust passed away. -.-

Hah, putting me on the spot huh? Well, I suppose indulge in my own personal theories

Sega CD Continuity: For me, Ghaleon's motivations in the Sega CD game started with spite for Althena basically throwing an impossible task upon his best friend Dyne, "killing" him. After that, however, he simply became megalomaniacal and wanted to dominate the world, or at least, bring the world Althena had created to its knees so he could rise up and create a new world order with the Goddess as his own personal power generator.

SSSC/SSH: In this continuity things are a little tricker. What we have here are two people, Dyne and Ghaleon, who despite being best friends, have completely different standpoints on humanity. Ghaleon worships Althena, yes, but not romantically. He's not in love with her. He's in love with what she represents; a constant deity who keeps humanity in order and the world of Lunar in balance. Ghaleon believes this world cannot continue to exist and prosper without its deity. Dyne, however, feels as Althena does; that the power of humanity can overcome any obstacle, including obstacles Althena herself cannot overcome. It is for this reason that Dyne sacrificed all of his Dragonmaster powers to help Althena achieve her wish of becoming mortal.

This shook Ghaleon to his core. Althena had chosen of her own free will to become a mortal. In Ghaleon's mind, this was akin to choosing to throw the world into chaos of her own free will. And to compound this further, just as in the Sega CD continuity, this required that his best friend lose everything they had worked for (I'm pretty sure Dyne didn't get to be a Dragonmaster on his own after all) for Althena's "unreasonable" request. He tried desperately to get Dyne to reconsider, to stop this madness before it couldn't be undone. But Dyne continued, and Althena was made mortal.

Dyne, knowing that Ghaleon could not accept this, disappeared with the new baby Luna and leaves her along with Nall with the Noas, whom he can trust to keep her hidden from Ghaleon's gaze. Feeling guilty for "betraying" his best friend, he disappears and assumes the name "Laike".

Time passes, and Ghaleon decides that he must accomplish two things.

1) He must find the mortal form of Althena and revive the goddess within by force
2) He must obtain complete control of her mental functioning, so that she cannot entertain the idea of returning to mortal form again

In doing so, he feels (incorrectly) that he'll bring Lunar back on the path it belongs; people obeying the order dictated by their deity.

[Shiva Indis]

Dyne practically spits it in your face in that scene and well with the way Ghaleon acts, you don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure out what went down between those three.

Woah, there! I don't want to undermine you, I just want to point out that WD put their own spin on the game. Namely, they played up "Ghaleon is in love with Althena" to the point that English-speaking players take it as fact. I don't particularly care for that since it discourages people from thinking otherwise.

And to that effect, I was a little dismayed to see that a line from Mia in which she theorizes about what went wrong with Ghaleon stayed in SSH.

"It's not that Ghaleon didn't understand their decision... he didn't want to understand it. He loved Althena, I'm convinced of it...and he was jealous of the Dragonmaster."

In Japanese it's like this:

"It's not that he didn't understand it. He didn't want to understand, did he? That must be it... The weakest part of his heart was shaken to its core... Yet he was never able to acknowledge his own weakness..."

I would point out that Alunissage's argument indicates that SSSC incorporates as much open ended storytelling as its predecessor - it's the open ends that differ, and the possibilities that can be projected on those ends.

Hey, that's very true, isn't it?

Also I wouldn't hold your breath on the long awaited Lunar 3 seeing as one of its key members joust passed away.

I don't think it reflects on Lunar's fortunes that much, although it is very sad. He left Game Arts years ago.

[Arlia]

Well, it doesn't really matter what happened, Althena and Dyne gave up their power, and Ghaleon snapped. The End.