Lunar Philosophy

[ghaleon12]

I was around 6 when Lunar TSS came out and at the time I think it really made me think a lot about philosophy, good vs. evil. While most RPGs have the good vs. evil dilemma, I think Lunar highlighted it better than any other. I was a Christian growing up, and I hate to say it, but at the time I considered Lunar as sort of a second religion. As ridiculous as that might sound, there are some philosophical aspects in Lunar like the emphasis on the human spirit in being able to overcome evil that make it worth looking at. I think as well just the amount of optimism throughout the game had an impact. I sort of wonder if there is a deeper message in Lunar that the makers put into it. The message actually might be anti-Christian since in Lunar EB the message is that people have the power. GA continued this idea in Grandia II as well.

So yeah, just wondering if anyone else found any sort of philosophical value in Lunar.

[Aaron]

I can totally understand what you're saying.

When I played Lunar 2 as a child. It literally made me believe there is no God. The idea that, "god could die or decide to give up" freighted me. I remember not being able to sleep over the idea.

But as for "philosophical" themes. Lunar and many JRPGs and even non JRPGs have kinda the same theme. Basically that we're in control of our own destiny's. I always found parallels between Lunar and Christianity.

1) God becoming human

I think thats the biggest and clearest parallel. There are certainly others. But there are some other philosophies in Lunar that contradict what Christianity teaches. I think the layer of depth in Lunar allows children to enjoy it as a game and adults to enjoy it as "literature".

One thing that always bothered me about Lunar was that man was required to save God. It always made me chuckle a little. But I still enjoy the game and the story very much.

[Alunissage]

I think most comparisons between Lunar's religion and real-world religions fall flat on their faces because of the extremely obvious different conceptualization of "deity". Althena is called a goddess, but she lacks some of the most important characteristics of the Christian God -- she is not omniscient, omnipotent, or immortal, and there is no suggestion that she created humans, or indeed anything other than the original terraforming of Lunar. She bears less resemblance to God than a pet owner does to a parent.

So while the idea that humans only need rely on each other and not on external "divine" help is exactly opposite to the thesis of the Bible, I would never consider it "anti-Christian". Totally different frames of reference. Especially since this whole idea that Althena (and Dyne) decided that humans were better off not having a Goddess was only in the remake, not in the original game at all. There was no reason to think, at the end of TSS, that Althena wouldn't simply resume being a goddess after she was done being Luna -- which is why it was a surprise to the players as well as the characters to find that she hadn't, in EB.

Ugh. I have plenty of blame to lay on SSS for messing with the storyline, but finding people thinking that that's actually the theme and philosophy of the series as a whole and calling it a "message" really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Sonic#]

Yes, Alunissage. Thinking about it, Althena has a lot of the qualities of a polytheistic God. Her powers are extremely great within a particular scope or area. But they are not infinite. There's perhaps a concept of gnosticism in there, where her power can be alive to enliven other objects even if she has passed on. There's a slight binary in the universe we see, but it seems to be more a binary between life and destruction rather than good and evil... though of course, that's there too. There is also a division of authority here, as the goddess is able to manifest her power in several dragons and instill a Dragonmaster with the power to command them. That role performs something that Althena, strictly speaking, is opposed to doing after destroying Zophar - the Dragonmaster protects Lunar, just as Althena sustains its life.

Of course that division wasn't there from the start. Althena had to change from a goddess who was willing to use her power in such a way to one who wasn't, a change that Lucia then had to undergo. No, if Althena is to possess the role of creator, then her increasingly reclusive nature (in steps - she did banish the Vile Tribe) reflects the gradual shift into a role where she lets humans determine their own destiny in her creation.

So the goddesses in this world develop. Their powers are vast, but limited. There is a necessary division of that power to perform a role that is strictly outside of the Goddess's purview. The goddess as a personality gradually inclines towards relaxing the reigns on her power, as her creation proves to be self-persistent.

In that progression, I don't think that the incarnation is Christian at all. There's nothing about becoming human in order to bear sins, or anything like that. Love is there, but it's a different kind. No, her incarnations, and particularly her last one, seem to be this process of letting go, of becoming as self-determined as the rest. It's a way to love, finally, but not as part of any cosmic plan. She embraces human love. For her last incarnation, human love is special. It cannot be explained, is flawed, is unwilled, but is ultimately strong. But most important here is that she can experience human love, live a life, and then let it go forever. It brings to mind the Tolkien "gift of the Valar," Numenor, which remained a gift as long as the kings were willing to relinquish their lives and rest after a good long life. When the Numenoreans became life-greedy, then they started to fall. Similarly, a lot of the dialogue in L2:EBC shows a preoccupation with mortality that wasn't really there in Lunar 1. Particularly False Althena. They've forgotten this best part of being human - loving, living, and then resting.

Does all of this make sense? It's been a few years since I played EBC, and I've never finished TSS, so my facts may be fuzzy. But I think the cosmology is its own, and to understand it, we have to extrapolate from its examples without any preconceived notions of religious structures.

[Aaron]

In that progression, I don't think that the incarnation is Christian at all. There's nothing about becoming human in order to bear sins, or anything like that. Love is there, but it's a different kind. No, her incarnations, and particularly her last one, seem to be this process of letting go, of becoming as self-determined as the rest. It's a way to love, finally, but not as part of any cosmic plan. She embraces human love. For her last incarnation, human love is special. It cannot be explained, is flawed, is unwilled, but is ultimately strong. But most important here is that she can experience human love, live a life, and then let it go forever.

Well said, I think you hit the nail on the head there. I also agree with the polytheistic bit especially after reading what you wrote. She like other polytheistic gods do things based on their self gratification with complete disregard to their subjects. Its kinda funny, in that regard as I've grown older and replayed SSSC I have found myself agreeing more and more with Ghaleon.

But I still feel there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn from Lunar with Christianity. Especially in Lunar 2. You brought up the "cult of Althena", that could certainly be another parallel.

But, I'm not trying to say it was deliberate or anything. Or that there was even some secret message. I'm just pointing out that there are similarities when comparing. And they do bring up questions that I think most people end up asking themselves.

I have never heard of any Final Fantasy game sparking a conversation on the meaning of life or the existence of God. Very few games do what Lunar has done.

So while the idea that humans only need rely on each other and not on external "divine" help is exactly opposite to the thesis of the Bible, I would never consider it "anti-Christian".

I never have had a problem with being the captain of your own ship. I don't see that concept as being opposite of the Bible. In fact I take it as part of free will. But, where Lunar and Christianity part is in the ability of the human spirit to "save" yourself. And I know you're probably thinking, apples and oranges, but on a macro scale thats basically what is being said.

[Alunissage]

But I still feel there are a lot of parallels that can be drawn from Lunar with Christianity.

That's a bug, not a feature. While EB has some (ill-chosen, to my mind) trappings of churchiness, e.g., the cathedral-like Sanctuaries and the music in Pentagulia, the purpose of the Cult/Chosen points up how Lunar differs from a Christian framework. While there had been a priesthood of Althena in Lunar 1, its primary purpose seems to be to train healers, not delve into theology. Zophar, working through human and quasi-human agents, used this as a base on which to build the Cult and encourage selfishness and greed in place of the altruism of the priesthood. That was his path to gaining power (from the evil of humans) and ultimately reviving. An existing evil person corrupting an existing organization to gain power and take over is not an original storyline, but nor is it a particularly Biblical one.

So while the idea that humans only need rely on each other and not on external "divine" help is exactly opposite to the thesis of the Bible, I would never consider it "anti-Christian".

I never have had a problem with being the captain of your own ship. I don't see that concept as being opposite of the Bible. In fact I take it as part of free will.

Then you need to brush up on your Bible. Reread what I wrote, with the emphasis. The entire point, the reason human existence continued as is after Adam and Eve screwed up, is to answer that very question, the one posed in the Garden of Eden: do humans need God's guidance of what is right and wrong, or can they do just fine without, as Eve was told?

[Aaron]

It took me a while to decide if I should derail the topic by responding to you Alunissage. But after a few days I decided I had to reply.

Then you need to brush up on your Bible. Reread what I wrote, with the emphasis. The entire point, the reason human existence continued as is after Adam and Eve screwed up, is to answer that very question, the one posed in the Garden of Eden: do humans need God's guidance of what is right and wrong, or can they do just fine without, as Eve was told?

Doesn't the question assume the ability to choose, or to do what you want with your life?

Also read this :

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!

[Sonic#]

Doesn't the question assume the ability to choose, or to do what you want with your life?

It does assume that, and Alunissage wasn't disputing that free will exists. Instead, she was debating the results of free will, and the kinds of free will that are good and bad. The problem is, in both the Garden of Eden and the scripture you cite, people often choose incorrectly. Thus, they require divine help in order to function correctly. This takes various forms, like following a set of virtues and resisting a set of sins devised as part of a doctrine, internalizing the will of God, and what have you. They (Thomas Aquinas most notably) adapt classical doctrines concerned with an individual's actions towards happiness, and set the apex of happiness in God, while writing off earthly free will as fragmented and subject to the whims of uncontrollable forces.

So in Christianity, humans have free will. But free will without higher guidance is extremely precarious. So human action alone is insufficient for grace. In Lunar, by contrast, people don't need Althena to find happiness, and the happiness that is of primary concern is earthly (or Silver Starry), not heavenly.