The Silver Star vs. Silver Star Story - plot differences?

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lictor
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The Silver Star vs. Silver Star Story - plot differences?

Post by lictor »

Being one of the unfortunate souls who has only played the PSX remake, I'm curious as to what I've "missed". I know that [spoiler]Luna originally stayed behind when they sailed for Meribia, and I heard something about "the Black Dragon's rage" instead of some of the Althena stuff in the end[/spoiler], but that's about it. Anyone care to fill me in?

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Post by MiaOne »

Oh my...there is SO much. And I'll probably let someone else do most of it.

But, yes the Insane Black Dragon was actually the final quest of the Four Heroes and stopping the Black Dragon killed Dyne and that is why Ghaleon is angry, not because Althena gave up her godess-ship. There are Dragon Angels in TSS. They kick butt. There are people living on the Frontier. Vane is shot down from a distance (Ghaleon is a coward) and doesn't fight back. There is no Fortress of Althena. You go to the Goddess Tower to get Althena's Sword and the final battle takes place in Ghaleon's Palace on top of the Grindary. You don't get to beat the crap out of Nash after he betrays you (unfortuante). There's more...I'll let other people do it though because it's so much fun!! Don't you think guys?!
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Ah yes, but in the original, Nash wasn't worthy of a beating, because he technically pulled a double-cross, and was fooling the big G-man and the Xenobia the entire time. In SSS, he was just a little ol' biatch who deserved his beat-down.
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Post by Alunissage »

Yeah, Nash as a character actually grew quite nicely in TSS, from being a pompous twit at the beginning to fairly likeable at the end.

There are a host of minor differences too. The Vile Tribe are all monsters, and except for some trash talking you never interact with any of them. The village of Burg is captured and put to work in the Talon Mine. Both Vane towers are entered as part of unmasking Xenobia. There is no scene with Tempest accusing people of being thieves. An airship is used to get to the Goddess Tower. Nall stays the same size throughout. The first time you try to get into the Grindery (without Althena's Sword), you get blasted away and end up in Reza, not Meribia, and that's where Laike tells you his history. There's an extra town, Marke. Mel is already turned to stone when you return to Meribia after Quark's death, and there are no monsters there or in Vane. The Grindery is powered by steam rather than dragons. There are no Royce and Phacia, so there is no application from Phacia to get into Vane, nor is there any spell cast at Althena's Temple. Alex has his magic unlocked in Black Rose Street (and learns a ton of spells).

That's about all I feel like typing right now. It starts getting hard to distinguish between major and minor changes, and plot and gameplay changes.

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Post by lictor »

I knew were quite a few differences, but this was more than what I expected. Too bad I ain't likely to be able to afford the original (and associated hardware) any time soon without selling my kidney or something.

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Post by Alunissage »

Well, there are emulators which work pretty well with it now, so all you need to get is the game disc. TSS isn't that expensive on eBay, or wasn't last I checked.

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Post by lictor »

Ah, I knew Genesis emulators worked really well, but I didn't know Mega CD ones did as well. Without original controllers and such it loses a bit of authenticity, but I suppose the experience will be essentially unchanged (with tv-out at least). Since I live in europe s&h will add a bit to the cost, but you're right - it doesn't seem to totally break the bank.

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Post by Kizyr »

Yeah considering it's nearly impossible to find the current hardware, the Gens emulator with the Sega CD BIOS will run Sega CD games perfectly. Get the original CD, though; it appears on eBay from time to time.

Anyway, these have been sort of covered, but the worst change they made by far was to the Frontier. Before, the Frontier was an immense desert--and the first town you came to was Cadin, full of humans. It goes to show you how bad Althena really is, trapping innocent humans and beastmen in the middle of the Frontier simply to teach the Vile Tribe a lesson.

Related to that, the world in TSS was much bigger. You could actually get lost in the world map while exploring, if you didn't know your way (which is why it was actually useful to get directions to the next location from NPCs).

Much of the legend of the Four Heroes is different. The Black Dragon went insane, and Dyne and Ghaleon were sent to put him down before he destroyed the countryside. It was like the Thunderdome: two men entered, only one left alive. That's the big reason why Ghaleon was so bitter: the experience taught him that Althena was a lousy ruler who needed to sacrifice pawns to have her way.

The other very bad change was the Talon Mines. In the original, the entire village of Burg was enslaved. It's a really poignant scene and makes the fight downright personal, once you see the empty village after Ghaleon tore through. KF
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Post by MiaOne »

Kizyr wrote:The other very bad change was the Talon Mines. In the original, the entire village of Burg was enslaved. It's a really poignant scene and makes the fight downright personal, once you see the empty village after Ghaleon tore through. KF


Agreed. I remember I cried so hard after the showdown with The Vile Tribe in Vane and then everyone was gone...and that music. :cry: I'm getting teary just thinking about it. And then...after I collected myself...I was pissed. Much more pissed then when in SSSC they just stole away Luna...I wanted REVENGE. I remember stomping around the house after it happened, muttering under my breath because I hated Ghaleon so much.
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Post by Silver Phoenix »

I have to say while I enjoyed some of the story changes in SSS, because Lunar The Silver Star was my first rpg experience it spoiled me with it's lasting impression. The music, the story, the entire world of the game. I just didn't feel as satisfied with the story of Silver Star Story even with the elaboration of certain elements. I also liked the Dragon Angels which were absent from SSS. I think the original story had more of an impact, because of what happened with Luna, and the town put into slavery in the Talon Mine. The music was so much better than SSS, which just made the game even more epic. I want a Lunar game with the return of the kick ass Dragon Cave music from the original Lunar. It was short, but hearing that music for the first time was just amazing. The game is truly nostalgic for me.

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Post by Alunissage »

Kizyr wrote:Anyway, these have been sort of covered, but the worst change they made by far was to the Frontier. Before, the Frontier was an immense desert--and the first town you came to was Cadin, full of humans. It goes to show you how bad Althena really is, trapping innocent humans and beastmen in the middle of the Frontier simply to teach the Vile Tribe a lesson.

We've been through this before. The fountain of transmission that leads to the Frontier was only dry for the 10 years before the story -- it was Ghaleon who sealed off that part of the Frontier, not Althena. Therefore, even if she sealed off the Vile Tribe in the Frontier, the humans were able to leave...until "over ten years ago" when Ghaleon started working openly in the Frontier. Xenobia clearly doesn't need a spring to warp to wherever she wants, so the transmission spring wouldn't have affected her -- but its lack would've confined the humans.

Althena's light may not have shone on that part of Lunar (I did think it was kind of neat how in SSSC the Frontier was the dark side of the moon) but that didn't mean that people were imprisoned there, only that they (or their ancestors) had chosen to live in a tough part of the world. Ghaleon is the one who "released the Vile Tribe from 500 years of captivity" and it's not much of a stretch to say that their terrorizing the human villages in the Frontier dated from them -- we don't see the Viles much outside of the Frontier (Burg is the only place I can think of offhand) and so their release may just be from whatever subset of the Frontier they occupied, or certain restrictions on their powers. Certainly no one in Cadin or Marke seems to blame the Goddess, but they have plenty to say about Ghaleon.

You're wrong about Ghaleon's problem with Althena, too. It wasn't that he thought she was a lousy, selfish ruler; it's that she wasn't strong enough to contain the insane Black Dragon (which was tearing apart the ground to the great detriment of the villagers, so it was hardly a matter of "having her way") by herself and needed the Dragonmaster to do it. Laike mentions that the dragonmaster is only a servant of the Goddess and that Ghaleon was never cut out for that; therefore, Ghaleon would see this kind of mission as being irresponsible of Althena while Dyne knew that it was part of the job and was willing to serve, not because it was her whim but because she needed the power of the Dragonmaster to oversee Lunar, which is why the position existed to begin with. But Ghaleon didn't think a goddess should need any help. And, of course, he saw Dyne's loss of magic as a humiliation, while Laike doesn't seem to think so.

I don't really get why you're intent on painting Althena as the villain, whether it's to get in character to continue writing your fanfic or if it's to be humorous. I can't really see it as funny; it seems almost designed to lessen other people's enjoyment of the story and its premises. :| I know you're not that malicious, though, but it makes me unhappy.

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Post by GhaleonOne »

I wanted REVENGE. I remember stomping around the house after it happened, muttering under my breath because I hated Ghaleon so much.


But I made up for it 1000 years later! Give me a break already!
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Post by MiaOne »

GhaleonOne wrote:But I made up for it 1000 years later! Give me a break already!


I HATECHU!!! ::Stomps up the stairs and slams her door::
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Post by Rune Lai »

Alunissage wrote:We've been through this before. The fountain of transmission that leads to the Frontier was only dry for the 10 years before the story -- it was Ghaleon who sealed off that part of the Frontier, not Althena.


Was it? I don't recall anything about Ghaleon sealing off the Frontier, or the fact the time the transmission spring went dry was ten years ago. I know Ruid was founded ten years ago, but I got the impression that the transmission spring was dry much longer than that. (Long enough that I was wondering how Dyne ever got in there.) Considering that the Vile Tribe was "expelled to the Frontier because they scorned the Goddess Althena" there couldn't have been much going to and from the Frontier, otherwise the Viles as a whole would have invaded long before then (and not have needed Ghaleon), and that wouldn't be much of an exile.

Personally, I tend to think of everyone living in the Frontier (barring the slaves at Talon and Ruid) as being part of the Vile Tribe. I don't think any of the natural inhabitants of the Frontier are human. It's too harsh out there. Those that were imprisoned five hundred years ago were probably either killed off or absorbed into the Vile Tribe to the point there is no longer any distinction. Note that the Frontier townspeople sprites have the highest concentration of obvious non-humans to be found anywhere in the game. The fact the wolf-like prison captain of Talon comes from one of the villages, speaks volumes of what the average citizen of these enclaves may be like, and that's neither human nor beastman.

I figure that like in SSS, some Viles are terrible demons bent on invasion and war, and some are relatively peaceful in their exile. The ones in the villages are the peaceful ones who are no longer interested in revenge, but they're still Viles by blood and heritage.
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Post by Alunissage »

THIS PLACE IS KNOWN AS
A TRANSMISSION SPRING,

BUT IT HASN'T BEEN USED
IN OVER 10 YEARS!

NO ONE 'ROUND HERE KNOWS
HOW TO OPERATE THIS SPRING
ANYMORE...,

SO LEAVE ME ALONE!

---

I WAS WONDERING WHY YOU
MADE THIS SPRING ACTIVE!

YOU DO KNOW THAT IT LEADS
TO THE FRONTIER?

WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO GO
TO THAT AWFUL PLACE?

---

(In Cadin)
YOU'VE REACHED THE FRONTIER.

THE LIGHT FROM ALTHENA DOES
NOT SHINE HERE, SO THE LAND
IS BARREN.

BE CAREFUL, MONSTERS OF THE
VILE TRIBE ARE EVERYWHERE!

I AM THE CHIEF OF THIS
GODDESS-FORSAKEN VILLAGE.

THE LIFE WE LEAD IS BARELY
HUMAN.

WE MUST FORAGE FOR FOOD
AND REMAIN ON GUARD AGAINST
ATTACKS FROM THE VILE TRIBE.

---

(in Ruid)
MANY OF US HERE ARE THE
MALES FROM THE TOWN OF
MARKE.

GHALEON SAYS IF WE
DON'T WORK HARD,

HE'LL SEND THE VILE TRIBE
TO KILL OUR FAMILIES!

---

I think there's a clear distinction here between the villagers of both Cadin and Marke and the Vile Tribe -- not just a subset of them, but the entire tribe. The mayor of Cadin certainly seems to think of himself and his people as human. I'm inclined to think that the harsh conditions of the Frontier have altered them, the way people living at very high heights have developed large ribcages and lungs to handle the much thinner air. I suppose the "strongest man in Cadin" could be a crossbreed, though.

As I said, I think that a) the Vile Tribe was/is a separate group from the villagers and b) only they were restricted (by some means we don't know), not the villagers. Xenobia can teleport; a little matter of a dry spring wouldn't bother her. Also, if you think that the dry spring is how Althena confined the Vile Tribe, how would you explain their release without the spring being active?

Also, in this game the Vile Tribe is uniformly monstrous. I'm not sure it's worth the effort to work in SSS's backstory of the more humanized Mazoku in with TSS's version of events.

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Post by Kizyr »

Alunissage wrote:We've been through this before. The fountain of transmission that leads to the Frontier was only dry for the 10 years before the story -- it was Ghaleon who sealed off that part of the Frontier, not Althena. Therefore, even if she sealed off the Vile Tribe in the Frontier, the humans were able to leave...until "over ten years ago" when Ghaleon started working openly in the Frontier. Xenobia clearly doesn't need a spring to warp to wherever she wants, so the transmission spring wouldn't have affected her -- but its lack would've confined the humans.


See, I gotta still disagree here. I think the ten-plus years ago when the spring was activated wasn't a permanent thing. I think it was the one-time use that allowed Dyne and his party to cross into the Frontier and get to the Black Dragon's Cave. If the spring were active for a significant length of time, and the cave itself didn't present a barrier to humans living in Cadin or Marke, then why would humans still be around?

Marke makes some sense, since it's situated around a Dragon Cave. But Cadin... In this world, there aren't cities in the middle of the desert. They're around some resource: an oasis, an oil reserve, a river, or the cross of some trade routes. All those can be ruled out for Cadin, so there's no reason for any number of inhabitants unless they were trapped there.

No wonder the Black Dragon went insane, after living there for so long.

Alunissage wrote:You're wrong about Ghaleon's problem with Althena, too. It wasn't that he thought she was a lousy, selfish ruler; it's that she wasn't strong enough to contain the insane Black Dragon (which was tearing apart the ground to the great detriment of the villagers, so it was hardly a matter of "having her way") by herself and needed the Dragonmaster to do it.


True, true. But it's a minor point of difference to my argument.

Alunissage wrote:I don't really get why you're intent on painting Althena as the villain, whether it's to get in character to continue writing your fanfic or if it's to be humorous. I can't really see it as funny; it seems almost designed to lessen other people's enjoyment of the story and its premises. :| I know you're not that malicious, though, but it makes me unhappy.


Bah, I'm humanizing the story more. It's enjoyable when there are more shades of grey between the good and evil. That's why TSS was so great: you could understand the villain's motives... perhaps not agree with them, but you could understand them.

I mean, think about it... To how many RPGs can you really apply skepticism? Alternate points of view? Failings of the main deity (Xenogears don't count)? KF
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Bah, Althena was a weakling. Ghaleon deserved to rule, and rule he should have!

But hey, I may be a bit biased when it comes to my favorite character. :P Stupid dragonboy.
-G1

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