A very huge problem!!

[KingOfFlyingCats]

While I agree with most of werefrog's commentay, I disagree on one point. No, we do not have the right to easy access. However, if there is no means to obtain the game legally (no legal downloads or copies being distributed by the company) then the company shouldn't whine about emulation. I could understand complaints if we were taking physical copies of the game and thereby denying other people access to them, but we are not. No one (except for perhaps the eBayers who would like to rip us off) is having anything taken away by me downloading a copy of a game that's been out of print for numerous years.

I agree about the elite gamers comment though. Without emulation I would have been unable to play Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen, Tales of Phantasia, or even some of the Metroid games (Sadly it's true, but then I come from a very poor family). These games were all dead when I emulated them, but if I had not then I would've never considered buying later games. Why you ask? It's an established game world, with large amounts of history, and a large portion of the game could (and usually is) missed because of this. Nothing bothers me more than knowing that there were things in the game that I didn't get that were thrown in just for the people who had the fortune to be a gamer back in the day.

[ilovemyguitar]

Well, since everyone and their mother seems to have chimed in on this subject, I may as well throw in my own two cents.

Downloading a copy of a decade old game is kind of like driving over the speed limit on an empty rural highway. Yeah, it's technically illegal, and it's not something you brag about, or can ultimately justify as the right thing to do, but plenty of people do it anyway.

[Sonic#]

Werefrog - You're making the error made earlier, in trying to compare other industries to the game industry. Games are games are games are games, not movies (though, to your credit, it's closer, and you observe pretty well). If there weren't competing hardwares or a longer time between new hardware, with backwards compatibility, then what you mention - easy attainability of "classics" - would be more possible. You've mentioned a lot of the 'ifs' of the matter, and as Kiz said, that's a step that the gaming industry should decide on.

I think they should be legally easily available though. I like to play new games at least as often as I like to play sequels, adaptions, or remakes. I want some old games for appreciation, and at least one service (GameTap) offers some of this, though it seems to be a lot of Genesis classics, including the original Phantasy Stars. A step in the right direction, at least.

KingOfFlyingCats - "except for perhaps the eBayers who would like to rip us off"

Your distrust of Ebay users, while I'm not sure if it's earned, alarms me. They want to make money, yes. G1 has sold games on there before, but it seemed like he loved those games, so I'm sure it wasn't simply to "rip us off."

And you seem to disagree with methods of exchange - money. There are other methods, such as bartering or performing services (I used to stack logs for a friend's mom to get a drive to the local pantry), but this is the main one. When you mention using piracy skills to somehow earn the game is invalid, because when something is exchanged, there must be an agreement. That is, a price or amount is agreed on. By the very nature of piracy, you're doing it without the other side's permission (like shoplifting). If the company states that its stuff is freeware, then an agreement is again made, so download away. Otherwise, it's still piracy.

And I'd lend you my EBC, but I've had too many bad experiences, losing a small host of Genesis games I never got back. It's made me a little retentive.

[KingOfFlyingCats]

Perhaps you misunderstand Sonic, I didn't mean to take a shot at eBayers in general, although I have had issues with some in the past (but then, I have issues thinking of a group I haven't had issues with).

My comment about using piracy SK!11z (sorry to correct your spelling) was meant to be humorous, although it applies in the situation presented in the comment I was responding to. In the original comment, a lack of the resources required to obtain something (according to the poster) represented the fact that someone without said resources was undeserving of what they desired. I was trying to point out that resources was a general term that extend beyond money.

As far as my personal actions towards piracy, I never download a game that the distributors will allow me to purchase. If there's been a remake (a complete remake so the COMPLETE series in Lunar doesn't count) or if it's been put back out for distribution in its original form, then I will buy it. Otherwise, I am given little option as (as mentioned above) I don't trust eBayers.

Finally, I certainly understand that you've had bad experiences as I've had them too. To be honest I don't know if I trust any of the people on here (just on the basis of not knowing them) with the items I'd put up for collateral. Beyond that, I've got EBC, just not the original EB.

[Werefrog]

Werefrog - You're making the error made earlier, in trying to compare other industries to the game industry. Games are games are games are games, not movies (though, to your credit, it's closer, and you observe pretty well). If there weren't competing hardwares or a longer time between new hardware, with backwards compatibility, then what you mention - easy attainability of "classics" - would be more possible. You've mentioned a lot of the 'ifs' of the matter, and as Kiz said, that's a step that the gaming industry should decide on.

I don't think that I made a mistake at all. In the comparisons that I make it, the same basic concepts still apply. When comparing the two I tried to point out what will happen to games if we stay in the direction we are heading to. We are heading to a destination where people don't know the classics of gaming. Yes, we are talking about games. And games are games are games are games. But to truly understand my point of view you must approach games from another direction.

Games are also information. Games tell us so many things. Information should widely available. I don't think there is anyone here that would disagree with that.

I don't even know how I got defending piracy. I'm no pirate. Just there is a problem in the gaming industry. I just want you guys to realize this, and I think most of you do now, so I'll be quiet for now unless I see something that needs my comment.

[phyco126]

You know, I wonder if it is possible to create a company that creates its own emulators, then buys the licenses to sell the item from the respectful companies.

They already have sights that lets you buy "direct2drive" games.

[Werefrog]

You know, I wonder if it is possible to create a company that creates its own emulators, then buys the licenses to sell the item from the respectful companies.

They already have sights that lets you buy "direct2drive" games.

That's something that I would do if I had the know-how or the money. But I have neither at this point. I think it's an amazing idea that will make someone rich. Unfortunately, that someone isn't me.

[Alunissage]

Perhaps you misunderstand Sonic, I didn't mean to take a shot at eBayers in general, although I have had issues with some in the past (but then, I have issues thinking of a group I haven't had issues with).

Sounds like that's more likely to be a problem of yours than of theirs, then.

My comment about using piracy SK!11z (sorry to correct your spelling) was meant to be humorous, although it applies in the situation presented in the comment I was responding to. In the original comment, a lack of the resources required to obtain something (according to the poster) represented the fact that someone without said resources was undeserving of what they desired. I was trying to point out that resources was a general term that extend beyond money.

Who said anything about "undeserving"? That's not remotely the same as "not entitled to". Not owning something doesn't give you the right to take it. It's that simple. It's nothing to do with being "deserving" or some other inherent quality.

While I'm at it I'd like to take issue with this whole "elite" thing in this thread. You [primarily Werefrog, that is] are acting as if people who for whatever reasons were able to play a game before you are oppressing and excluding the masses, and the developers are catering to that by putting in references to earlier installments in later series. How dare they! How can they justify making a sequel to anything at all when some of their audience may not have played the first game? What elitism to have game series, especially those that extend over a large period of time! Give me a break. You can't expect companies to assume everyone's playing things for the first time -- their largest market is old enough to have been playing games for a couple decades now.

As far as my personal actions towards piracy, I never download a game that the distributors will allow me to purchase. If there's been a remake (a complete remake so the COMPLETE series in Lunar doesn't count) or if it's been put back out for distribution in its original form, then I will buy it. Otherwise, I am given little option as (as mentioned above) I don't trust eBayers.

Eh? What do you mean by a "complete" remake? SSSC is quite different from TSS. Sounds like a rationalization to not buy either to me. And, AGAIN, you have the option of not playing the game.

Finally, I certainly understand that you've had bad experiences as I've had them too. To be honest I don't know if I trust any of the people on here (just on the basis of not knowing them) with the items I'd put up for collateral. Beyond that, I've got EBC, just not the original EB.

Then don't ask. Nice of you to assume that we'd trust you but you can't trust us.

[YoshiMars]

Downloading a copy of a decade old game is kind of like driving over the speed limit on an empty rural highway. Yeah, it's technically illegal, and it's not something you brag about, or can ultimately justify as the right thing to do, but plenty of people do it anyway.

I believe you said it all right there. Or at the very least summed up my opinion nicely. Well said.

[Werefrog]

While I'm at it I'd like to take issue with this whole "elite" thing in this thread. You [primarily Werefrog, that is] are acting as if people who for whatever reasons were able to play a game before you are oppressing and excluding the masses, and the developers are catering to that by putting in references to earlier installments in later series. How dare they! How can they justify making a sequel to anything at all when some of their audience may not have played the first game? What elitism to have game series, especially those that extend over a large period of time! Give me a break. You can't expect companies to assume everyone's playing things for the first time -- their largest market is old enough to have been playing games for a couple decades now.

I'd like to start by apologizing for the usage of the word elite. I forgot at the time that it is such a loaded phrase. Secondly, I have to say that you're missing the concept here. The concept of the "elite" is that by limiting the audience it dooms sequels of "rare" games to failure since I believe that the majority of people will at least be reluctant to buy games that they know to be in a series that they haven't played before. I think this applies the most to RPGs since role-players care more about story and will be afraid of missing something important. Let's take a second to look at the most successful gaming series:

Final Fantasy: old games widely available in stores
Zeldla: old games widely available in stores

The question is whether the popularity causes the availability or if the avaiblity causes popularity. Neither I nor any of you can determine this to 100% accuracy (since we're talking about looking at game sales here, not a lab experiment). But I think the correlation is strong enough to warrant an experiment from the developers.

I would disagree with the statement that the majority of people who game having been old enough to play for the last couple of decades especially with RPGs since many, many RPGers (like myself) began playing with FF7.

The second important part of my "elite" model is that it confines information to too small of group. Although not everyone believes this yet, video games are like movies or CDs or TV or books. They're an important part of the human experience. You (generic you) may not agree with this yet. But remember, people thought movies had no artistic merit when they first came to be. Same with TV (although many people still argue this .) When you think of games more as a form of information, it's kind of hard to justify the scarcity of games. What if the only place you could buy The Grapes of Wrath or the Bible was on eBay for 80 dollars? Would you think that piracy of these books would be necessary? I'm assuming you would say yes. As was pointed out before games are not movies or books. But they do have very similar properties. Yes games are a form of entertainment. But so are movies and books. I get the impression that we're still in the middle ages of gaming. There must be a Renaissance sometime soon. Maybe putting games online for sale is similar to the creation of the printing press.

Also, I should point out that I could probably be considered part of the elite myself. There are a lot of games I don't have. But I own many Super Nintendo games and Playstation games that many people would want to play. Although I would probably be considered part of the elite, I don't want to be. I want older games to be available to more people. Let's look at this board. When we're not discussing piracy or something else, the board is generally pretty dead. Now imagine if only 1000 people downloaded SSSC. This would cause many of those people to come to this board to discuss the game. I see a downloadable service breathing new life into the fan bases of the old games. And personally, I would prefer piracy breathing new life into these games compared to their fan bases just dying out. Think of it as a transfusion. We need new blood. Piracy is a way of getting that. Again, a downloadable service is preferable, but they haven't given us that.

On a side note, Sonic (I believe) mentioned Phantasy Star on Gametap. I think it would be interesting to see how the fan bases of Phantasy Star changed following its release on Gametap. My only problem with Gametap is I don't want to pay 15 dollars a month for eternity for a couple games that I want. I have to say though, Gametap is a good start.

[Alunissage]

Well, what I actually said was that the largest market was old enough to have been playing games for 20 years, not that they actually have been. And to be honest I don't know if that's accurate. I keep reading stats that the average age of gamers is somewhere in the late 20s or older, but that doesn't mean that that age group is the largest one.

I need to point out that some series (seria?) don't come to the US until after they've been established in Japan. Someone mentioned pirating Tales of Phantasia; it seems likely that that person sought it out because of playing Tales of Destiny or even one of the later ones here. Phoenix Wright has been out there for a while -- isn't the one we got the fifth in the series? Fire Emblem, too. Perhaps more relevant to this group, people have played Arc Twilight of the Spirits without playing any of Arc Collection, and have played Growlanser II and III without playing the first game -- which is a bit of a testament in itself given that II is basically a gaiden to I. You already have some data available on how well games in established series sell when the earlier installments are inaccessible to the vast majority of the audience.

[Werefrog]

True, but I think games will sale even better if people have access to the earlier games. I think some of the success of the Tales games and Fire Emblem has to do with it being one of the few RPGs available on the GC. Also, it should be noted that the Phoenix Wright that just came out was the first one, and there are two more entries in Japan with them working on the fourth entry now.

[KingOfFlyingCats]

I actually wouldn't have played tales of symphonia or destiny without having played Tales of Phantasia first. This is also the same reason that I haven't played the late game Fire Emblem's that we are provided. That said, werefrog is very correct in that lack of availability of older games hinders the company's profits at least a bit.

On a final note, since "deserving" and "entitled to" are nearly interchangable in usage and quite synonymous, "undeserving" and "not entitled to" are not different terms at all... of course I could be wrong (checking dictionary) nope. Not wrong at all on that one.

Edit: Also, I use the term COMPLETE (note the all caps) because the games were called Silver Star Story (wait for it) ...COMPLETE and Eternal Blue (once again, wait for it)... COMPLETE. I own both of these games but as you stated (thank you for making my argument for me) they have numerous (some very important) deviations from the original.

[Alunissage]

I'm wondering what you mean by a complete remake which would make the PS/Saturn games -- it's totally inaccurate to refer to those as the COMPLETE series since that's pretty much a US-only nomenclature -- not count. What would be a complete remake? One that's identical to the original except with updated graphics? Just wondering here. Because if anything that sounds like the opposite of "complete" in meaning, if things are changed (remade) only a little rather than completely changed.

And you're still not getting it. "Entitled to" and "deserving of" are not identical, although in some contexts they may be used interchangeably. Entitlement is having a right to something, as in taxpaying citizens are entitled to have a say in how their government runs. Figuratively they have the title to (ownership of) that thing. Deserving is more of a moral judgment, a reward (or punishment). One could say a murderer deserves death, but it's unlikely that one would say a murderer is entitled to death.

[Werefrog]

I think he (or she not exactly sure) is calling remakes complete remakes. I just think he (or she) is confused by the difference between port and remake.

[KingOfFlyingCats]

It's a he, and I guess I was confused by that terminology. For exampl, Lunar TSS COMPLETE is not a complete Remake (ironically... but is that what you call a port?) whereas Chrono Trigger for the Playstation is, as far as I know, a remake

As for entitled and deserving, in the context you used they were totally interchangable, even though they may not be in some cases. As with all different words athere are cases where they are not interchangable, but you were not using one of these cases.

[Werefrog]

It's a he, and I guess I was confused by that terminology. For exampl, Lunar TSS COMPLETE is not a complete Remake (ironically... but is that what you call a port?) whereas Chrono Trigger for the Playstation is, as far as I know, a remake

As for entitled and deserving, in the context you used they were totally interchangable, even though they may not be in some cases. As with all different words athere are cases where they are not interchangable, but you were not using one of these cases.

No, I would call Lunar Silver Star Story Complete a remake because parts of the story are changed, and it makes use of improved graphics. Also, the gameplay is changed.

Chrono Trigger for a PS is in no way a remake. The gameplay is exactly the same, the story is the same, and the graphics are the same (except the new cut scenes). So it's a portt.

There's a fine line between ports and remakes.

[KingOfFlyingCats]

Ah, ok. Thanks for correcting me on that. This is the first time I've heard those terms. I don't keep up with gaming culture too often. I like the games and buy the ones I have the money for. Perhaps my inability to buy large amounts of games makes me refuse to buy games if I have not had access to the earlier games in a series. If I can only buy one or two games a year then I have to make sure I'm going to get everything there is to be gotten out of said game. If I haven't played the earlier games in the series, then I very much won't feel like I'm getting my money's worth (except in the case of games like Final Fantasy, whch are all different stories in different worlds with different people)

[Alunissage]

As for entitled and deserving, in the context you used they were totally interchangable, even though they may not be in some cases. As with all different words athere are cases where they are not interchangable, but you were not using one of these cases.

No, they were NOT, otherwise I would not be making a distinction between them. I don't know how I can be any clearer on this. Being a good boy and deserving something because you're a wonderful person isn't the same as being legally entitled to it.

The remake/port bit should perhaps indicate to you that you're not always up on grasping the finer distinctions of definitions...

[KingOfFlyingCats]

You can't look up these definitions of port and remake in the standard dictionary, so no, distinctions in definitions that are non-universal are not always my strength.

As for your making a distinction between them now, if anything that seems like a sad and desperate attempt to recover from not only having your argument completely and totally shot down but also to avoid looking like a bad guy. I used to do that when I was thirteen, so I know quite a bit about it.