Four heros

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S.ninja
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Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Wed Oct 17, 2018 7:56 am

I'm trying to put together a good scenario of the 4heros story

What I got so far is.

Ghaleon was born a fairly human looking member of the vile tribe and was smuggled out of the Frontier so he could live a better life in the green earth. At some point he became a priest ( per harmony and the art book) he then became a travler of avoid conflict because he aged slower and could cast spells without incantation.

He met A young Dyne when traveling near Burg and stayed there for a few months/years then left

One day Dyne and his friend Noah(Alex's father) found the white dragon cave where Dyne passed his trial.

The Dyne, Noah, and the man who would become the dock master(per TSS) where traveling to the mainland so Dyne could meet the dragons when there ship was attacked attacked by pirates lead by Hell Mel. Who had a fight with Dyne that lasted 7days. Afterward Mel changed his ways and joined Dyne

Noah was injured and had to return home with the dock master.

On the main land they ran into Ghaloen who was going to Vane. Mel who had no interest in magic left to see his wife( speculation based on harmony) while the other two went to Vane and met Lemia and the events Of the Vane manga took place.

From here the timeline splits one for TSS and one for SSSC and Harmony.

TSS: Ghaleon, Lemia And Mel help Dyne meet the other dragons. At some point the befriend Myght and he make a balloon for the so they can reach the goddess tower. Once there the goddess finds Dyne worthy and gives him her sword which make him a Dragonmaster.

After some time the black dragon goes insane and starts ravishing the land (think Deathwing in the Warcraft cataclysm cinematic) The four go off and fight it in the frontier where Dyne uses all of his power to kill it and loses his power as the Dragonmaster. He then tells his friends to tell the world that he to had died because he was tired of the fame. He left to travel the world.

One day the goddess decided to become human ( that is something she likes to do from time to time) and trusted herself and a small winged catlike creature to Dyne. Who gave them to his childhood friend Noah.


SSSC & harmony: after leaving Vane the four when to find the Dragons. At some point the where joined by a man named Eiphel, and later for some reason the goddess also joined them(she said she traveled with them in harmony)

Eiphel, who had made a deal the the 5 gods of the black star. betrays them kidnaps the goddess, and leaves them for dead .

He takes her to his base Underneath the ocean and starts to siphon her powers and damages Lunar in the process. Then the four heros show up save the goddess

She sees that giving her power to the planet can save it and in the process she is made human. Ghaleon sees this as a betrayal because as a priest he believes that Lunar needs a deity to guide them .

A lot of story gaps if anyone knows anything to add please let me know also if I got something wrong let me know!

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Re: Four heros

Postby Shinto-Cetra » Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:22 pm

Ghaleon was the last member of the Vane Mazoku/Vile Tribe, so he was never smuggled out of the frontier, he was born in Vane. This is gone into in the Vane Airship manga, but the Vane Mazoku were similar to the frontier Mazoku (casting magic without an incantation, some like Latona even had the geometric tattoos, age very slowly) but they never rebelled against Althena in the distant past. A lot of what you mention seems like speculation (not that it's wrong), like I always thought Dyne told no one of his "death" (TSS)(I know there is an NPC in Cadin or Marke, who says otherwise, but how would he know that?) and I assumed Eiphel was a villain from the beginning (SSH), but I don't have proof either. If you go by the Vane airship manga, Ghaleon and Dyne met Lemia first, and Mel sometime afterwards as he never appears in said manga.

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S.ninja
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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:09 pm

Thanks for the info this will help me.Yes I had a lot of speculation but when trying to peace the story together from fragments I almost have to. :D it have been awhile since I looked up the translation for the Vane manga so thanks again

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:11 am

All that sounds mostly right. Am at work so I can't look up my notes.

I'm pretty sure that everyone in TSS believes that Dyne is dead, other than his friends (Noah, Myght). It's never stated WHEN he "died", though; it could have been before or after he brought Luna and Nall to Burg. We know that Ghaleon closed the frontier and started his work as the Magic Emperor about 10 years before the events of TSS, but don't know how long he was stewing about it until he started taking action.

One thing that only just occurred to me is that you get Dyne's Sword from the first part of the Black Dragon Cave. Of course, as Dragonmaster he would have been using the Sword of Althena. While on the one hand I don't really want to read too much into it (since it's a natural gameplay kind of thing), it's kind of interesting trying to put that together with the insane Black Dragon scenario.

I'm almost certain that Dyne and Ghaleon went together to contain the Black Dragon, and only Ghaleon returned. Don't think Mel and Lemia were mentioned as being there. Whatever their heroism was ("defeating a demigod"), it wasn't that. Ghaleon was angry that the Goddess required this of Dyne. It's not clear whether Ghaleon thought at that time that Dyne had died, though clearly by late in the game events he knows that Dyne is still alive. Actually, I think that Nall concludes that Ghaleon must've known that Dyne was alive because he destroyed the monument in Burg (when you examine the monument after Laike's revelation to Alex).

Oh, a thing you might include is that in TSS some NPC says that Dyne and Ghaleon had a competition to see who would become Dragonmaster and Ghaleon lost by a narrow margin. I can try to find that cite, but it won't be easy.

Oh, I *think* that per the Vheen manga, Ghaleon was already an apprentice priest when he left Vane with the remaining Mazoku.

It's harder to reconcile the timing of Dyne meeting Mel and Dyne meeting Lemia. And, for that matter, Dyne meeting Ghaleon. Quark recognizes Ghaleon, but Ghaleon doesn't know where Quark's cave is. (Unless that's a pretext on Ghaleon's part, but why would he bother? By the time he's ready to deal with Quark, he doesn't need to cover up what he's doing any more.) Perhaps Quark showed up to turn Dyne into a Dragonmaster; we only see the scene with Nall, who doesn't learn he's a dragon until that point, but certainly Ghaleon knew that a dragon was required to become a dragonmaster. So Ghaleon could have met Quark then but not been to his cave.

I think Noah also says that he stayed behind because he thought he'd hold Dyne back. I don't remember if he said he was injured at any point. I generally interpreted that as meaning that he stayed on Caldor and never made it to the mainland, but perhaps you're right that he returned. Could be that he and the harbormaster had basically the same reaction as Ramus when the idea of magic study came up -- this was beyond them, and they'd go back to the life they understood. Could also be that there were two run-ins with Mel, one of which was the long battle, the other of which (after Dyne met Ghaleon and Lemia) resulted in his joining them. The backstory Shiva translated for us years ago from the Japanese TSS guide said that Jessica's mother was kidnapped by someone else (not Mel) and then Mel rescued her; I could see Mel enlisting the strong guy he'd fought earlier (Dyne) as help for that rescue.

Regarding resolving the two versions, I think it's Damon's library in TSS that says that the human form of the goddess had become old and weak, and was threatened by an evil power that the Four Heroes fought against. I kind of like the idea that when Althena was apparently travelling with the group as mentioned in the SSH beginning that she was still in that old and weak form and they didn't know it was her at that time. Further thoughts on that scene will have to wait until I replay it in English.

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S.ninja
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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:20 am

Thank you for all your notes I knew you had notes on the game. I wish I knew the Japanese diff and info on the heros I did speculate a lot when putting the timeline of when everyone met and left. Your point on Mel recruiting Dyne at a later date gave me something to think about. Also I need to gather all the info on past Dragonmaster I can for a different story.

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Re: Four heros

Postby Kizyr » Mon Oct 29, 2018 6:00 am

If you're ever curious about the Japanese differences, I've compiled all the dialogue and gameplay differences for TSS, EB, SSS, and EBC on LunarNET here. There's some scattered info about the Four Heroes and past Dragonmasters that didn't get reflected in all of the English dialogue:
http://www.lunar-net.com/tss/tss_diff.php
http://www.lunar-net.com/eb/eb_diff.php
http://www.lunar-net.com/sssc/sss_diff.php
http://www.lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php
~Kizyr
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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:42 pm

Thanks

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:27 am

I found my incomplete doc of quotations from TSS about the Four Heroes. Here are some excerpts that relate to your questions. An interesting thing to note is that someone in Marke indicates that Ghaleon looked up to Dyne, and I think in general there's the implication that Dyne was the older/more senior/more grounded. I wonder if that was also in the original Japanese version, because certainly in Funato's manga she seems to have seen it the other way around, and characterized Dyne as a cheerful puppy while Ghaleon is the sober elder. I wonder where she got that idea?

Also, I don't have anything to this effect here, but I seem to recall having the idea that the Reza Guildmaster also knew of Laike's identity as Dyne. So maybe he played some role in their adventure too.

Burg
---
TRUTHFULLY, ALEX, I'VE BEEN
IN THAT CAVE MYSELF WITH
DYNE...IF I'D GONE IN ALONE,

I PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN
KILLED! IT'S PROBABLY BETTER
IF YOU DIDN'T GO, SON.

---
MASTER DYNE RECEIVED A RING
FROM THE WHITE DRAGON AND
WAS THEN ABLE TO CROSS OVER

TO THE CONTINENT. THERE HE
PROVED HIMSELF AND BECAME
ONE OF THE FOUR HEROES!

I STAYED BACK IN BURG
BECAUSE I FELT I WOULD HOLD
HIM BACK...

---
HAVE YOU BEEN TO THE DRAGON
CAVE EAST OF HERE?

MASTER DYNE'S FIRST QUEST
BEGAN IN THAT CAVE WHEN HE
MET THE WHITE DRAGON THERE.

---
WOW! THE WHITE DRAGON GAVE
YOU A RING?

IT'S BEEN SAID THAT DYNE
RECEIVED A SIMILAR RING WHEN
HE MET THE WHITE DRAGON...

Saith
---
YOU'RE THE SON OF NOAH!!!
BOY, THAT NAME BRINGS BACK
A FEW MEMORIES!

YOUR FATHER, MASTER DYNE
AND I ALL WENT ON AN
ADVENTURE TOGETHER LONG,

LONG AGO...

---
YOUR FATHER TOOK GOOD CARE
OF ME LONG, LONG AGO.

SO NOW, THE LEAST I CAN
DO IS TO HONOR HIS WISH
TO TAKE YOU TO MERIBIA.

...UNFORTUNATELY,
WE CAN'T SAIL...

THE CAPTAIN SCREWED UP...

---
COME A LITTLE CLOSER...AH,
THERE...LET ME GET A LOOK
AT YOU....MY! ADVENTURERS!

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME I'VE
SEEN ADVENTURERS IN SOME
TIME!

YOU REMIND ME OF
THE YOUNG DYNE...

HE BECAME ONE OF THE FOUR
HEROES AFTER SETTING OUT
ON AN ADVENTURE.

ON HIS WAY TO MERIBIA LONG
AGO, DYNE MET UP WITH
MASTER MEL,

WHO WAS THEN ONE OF THE
MOST FEARED PIRATES ON
THE HIGH SEAS.

AFTER FIGHTING FOR SEVEN
DAYS, THE TWO WERE
SO WORN OUT,

THEY DECLARED A DRAW.
AFTER THAT,

MASTER MEL SETTLED DOWN
TO A QUIET LIFE IN MERIBIA,

WHILE DYNE...OH, I'M
GETTING OLD, AND SO IS
THIS STORY...YOU KNOW IT!

Meribia
---
THIS WAREHOUSE IS FULL OF
MANY PRICELESS TREASURES
FROM DAYS GONE BY...

IN TIMES PAST, MANY OF THE
MERCHANTS OF MERIBIA WERE
TARGETED BY THIEVES.

THEY WERE WITHOUT HOPE UNTIL
MASTER MEL CAME TO THEIR
AID AND CLEANED UP MERIBIA!

---
THERE'S NO VILLAIN STRONG
ENOUGH TO BEST MASTER MEL
IN A FIGHT!

MASTER MEL KNOWS THEIR
TRICKS, 'CAUSE HE USED
TO BE A PIRATE CAPTAIN!

---
JESSICA IS THE ONLY CHILD
OF MASTER MEL.

HER MOTHER DIED WHEN
JESS WAS VERY YOUNG,
OR SO I HEARD.

Black Rose St.
---
SO, YOU ADMIRE DRAGONMASTER
DYNE AND ARE ON AN ADVENTURE
OF YOUR OWN, KID?

DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH, SQUIRT!
MASTER DYNE ALREADY KNEW
MANY MAGICS AT YOUR AGE!

Mel's Mansion
---
MASTER MEL'S DECEASED WIFE
WAS THE WIFE OF ROYALTY!
SHE WAS GORGEOUS!

THEY MET WHEN MASTER MEL
WAS TRYING TO OVERTAKE
THEIR SHIP AT SEA...

YOU SEE, HE WAS A PIRATE
CAPTAIN AT THE TIME...

HOHHHHMMM...HOW ROMANTIC!

---
I HEARD FROM GHALEON THAT
YA DID QUITE WELL IN VANE,
ALSO.

ALEX, THE FIRE I SEE IN
YER EYES TAKES ME BACK TO
MY DAYS WITH DYNE...

I THINK IT WAS HIS EYE FOR
ADVENTURE THAT GOT US IN SO
MUCH TROUBLE..HO, HO, HO!

Vane
---
ONCE LONG AGO, WHEN THE
GODDESS ALTHENA GREW WEAK,

AN EVIL MAGICIAN CONJURED UP
A FEARFUL DEMIGOD.

THE FOUR HEROES AROSE TO
SAVE THE WORLD FROM THIS
EVIL.

LEGEND SPEAKS OF A TIME WHEN
THEY WILL ARISE AGAIN...

---
AFTER THE LAST INCARNATION
OF THE GODDESS ALTHENA, THE
BLACK DRAGON WENT INSANE...

IT WAS DRAGONMASTER DYNE
WHO TOOK CARE OF HIM! IT
WAS HIS LAST ADVENTURE...

---
AS DRAGONMASTER, DYNE'S
MAGIC POWER WAS ASTOUNDING!

HE USED HIS POWER WISELY,
AND CONFRONTED ALL KINDS OF
TERRIBLE ENEMIES THAT WOULD

HAVE OVERRUN US, WERE IT NOT
FOR HIM!

MASTER GHALEON HAS A STRONG
MAGIC AURA, LIKE DYNE. IN
FACT, IT MAY BE STRONGER...

Reza
---
LONG AGO, GHALEON AND THE
OTHER THREE HEROES USED TO
FIGHT TO PROTECT ALTHENA.

WHY HAS GHALEON CHANGED INTO
THE MAGIC EMPEROR, IN
OPPOSITION TO ALTHENA?

---
A DRAGONMASTER IS JUST A
SERVANT TO GODDESS ALTHENA.

GHALEON WAS NEVER CUT OUT
TO BE A 'SERVANT.'
....BUT THIS IS TOO MUCH.

---
THE WHOLE FRONTIER IS UNDER
THE REIGN OF THE MAGIC
EMPEROR!

PEOPLE SAY THAT DYNE DIED
IN THE FRONTIER...HE WENT
IN WITH MASTER GHALEON...

...AND DIDN'T COME OUT!

Lyton
---
DRAGONMASTER DYNE WAS
INVINCIBLE, OR SO WE ALL
THOUGHT...

BUT THE TRUTH WAS TOLD
WHEN ONLY ONE RETURNED
FROM THE BLACK CAVE

IT WAS DYNE'S LAST
ADVENTURE...
IT WAS HIS LAST HURRAH.

---
THE BLACK DRAGON WAS
KILLED, BUT DYNE WAS TOO.

IT WAS HIS LAST ADVENTURE
AND HIS LAST HURRAH.

---
GHALEON WAS THE ONLY ONE
LEFT WHEN THE BATTLE
WAS DONE...

A SMILE LEFT HIS FACE
NEVER TO RETURN...

Around Myght’s lab (Laike)
---
WHEN I WAS YOUR AGE, WE
DIDN'T HAVE THIS LUXURY.

I ONCE HAD TO SWIM 23
MILES THROUGH LAVA
SPRINGS!

WHY DON'T YOU TRY
WALKING NOW, ALEX?
IT'S SO REFRESHING!

Myght’s tower
---
IF LAIKE HADN'T DEMOLISHED
THAT LAST BALLOON,

I WOULDN'T HAVE TO
BUILD ANOTHER!

---
OKAY ALEX, YOU CAN USE THE
HOT AIR BALLOON NOW.

BUT PLEASE! I'M BEGGING YOU!
DO NOT CRASH IT LIKE YOUR
BUDDY DYNE DID TO THE OTHER!

I DON'T WANT TO BUILD
ANOTHER ONE OF THOSE THINGS.
THEY'RE A REAL PAIN...

Marke
---
THE ONLY PERSON GHALEON
EVER RESPECTED WAS MASTER
DYNE.

AFTER HE DIED, GHALEON
CHANGED COMPLETELY...

---
WHAT?!!! MASTER DYNE IS
STILL ALIVE??

IF THAT'S TRUE, THEN GHALEON
MUST HAVE TURNED EVIL WHEN
DYNE LOST HIS MAGIC POWER.

---
I GUESS GHALEON JUST TOTALLY
LOST IT WHEN HIS IDOL WAS
HUMILIATED...

---
GHALEON SEEMS TO HATE THE
GODDESS ALTHENA FOR ALLOWING
MASTER DYNE TO DIE...

AFTER DYNE'S DEATH, GHALEON
MUST HAVE PLOTTED WITH THE
VILE TRIBE TO OVERTHROW HER!

I HOPE FOR OUR SAKE HE
FAILS!

---
GHALEON WILL NEVER FORGIVE
THE GODDESS FOR ALLOWING
DYNE TO DIE...

---
MASTER DYNE IS STILL ALIVE,
BUT WITHOUT MAGIC POWER?

...THEN WHY DOES GHALEON
HATE THE GODDESS SO?

---
OF THE FOUR HEROES, THE
PEOPLE LOVED GHALEON AND
DYNE THE MOST.

BUT NOW, GHALEON HAS TURNED
AGAINST THE GODDESS AND THE
PEOPLE!

---
THE BLACK DRAGON WAS THE
STRONGEST OF THE DRAGON
TRIBE...

WHEN HE WENT INSANE, OUR
WORLD TEETERED ON THE BRINK
OF COLLAPSE!

---
DRAGONMASTER DYNE RECEIVED
ORDERS FROM ALTHENA TO SEAL
AWAY THE BLACK DRAGON.

IN ORDER TO COMPLETE THIS
TASK, ALL OF DYNE'S MAGIC
POWER WAS DEPLETED.

---
GHALEON WAS MASTER DYNE'S
FRIEND, AND HELPED HIM TO
SEAL AWAY THE BLACK DRAGON.

BUT GHALEON NEVER FORGAVE
THE GODDESS FOR GIVING DYNE
SUCH AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK.

---
YOU KNOW, I HEARD THAT LONG
AGO,

GHALEON AND DYNE HAD
A MATCH TO SEE WHO WOULD
BECOME DRAGONMASTER.

GHALEON LOST BY A NARROW
MARGIN TO DYNE...

COOL, HUH?

Talon
---
YES, I THINK THAT HIS POWER
HAS FAR SURPASSED THE LEVEL
MASTER DYNE REACHED.

WHEN I WAS HIS APPRENTICE,
I FELT THE STRENGTH OF HIS
MAGIC...

NOW GHALEON'S TURNED THAT
TO EVIL...

---
GHALEON HAS SURPASSED EVEN
THE LEVEL OF POWER MASTER
DYNE ONCE WIELDED!

---
LUNA'S BEEN KIDNAPPED?
OH, DEAR...

.............
.......HMMMMM

ALEX, I HAVE TO TELL
YOU ABOUT A SECRET I'VE
KEPT FOR A LONG TIME...

MANY YEARS AGO, MASTER DYNE
CAME TO ME WITH A BABY
AND A STRANGE PET.

HE ASKED ME TO CARE FOR
THEM, NO QUESTIONS ASKED...
AND, OF COURSE I DID.

ALEX, YOU KNOW THEM AS
LUNA AND NALL.

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:42 am

Here, I found the link to Shiva Indis's post on Mel's pirate background:
viewtopic.php?t=698

There's a fair bit of discussion in that thread about the Four Heroes that may be useful to you, including confirmation about Dyne and Mel meeting up twice rather than once. And, at the end, the cite for Noah being injured and returning to Burg: it's from Lunar Legend. I had totally forgotten that. Wish I had a text dump for that game.

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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:52 pm

Wow you guys are so helpful I really appreciate you

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Re: Four heros

Postby Kizyr » Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:40 am

Alunissage wrote:I found my incomplete doc of quotations from TSS about the Four Heroes. Here are some excerpts that relate to your questions. An interesting thing to note is that someone in Marke indicates that Ghaleon looked up to Dyne, and I think in general there's the implication that Dyne was the older/more senior/more grounded. I wonder if that was also in the original Japanese version, because certainly in Funato's manga she seems to have seen it the other way around, and characterized Dyne as a cheerful puppy while Ghaleon is the sober elder. I wonder where she got that idea?
...
Marke
---
THE ONLY PERSON GHALEON
EVER RESPECTED WAS MASTER
DYNE.
AFTER HE DIED, GHALEON
CHANGED COMPLETELY...
---
I GUESS GHALEON JUST TOTALLY
LOST IT WHEN HIS IDOL WAS
HUMILIATED...

Unfortunately I checked and I can't seem to find screenshots of this in either my English or Japanese screenshots, so... I can't verify what the equivalent text was in Japanese. I don't seem to recall anything hugely different about how Ghaleon and Dyne's relationship (or admiration in this case) was characterized.

Er, I also have the text dump of the English, but not the Japanese, TSS. KF
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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:34 pm

Yeah, I had hoped I'd be able to find a way to get the Japanese text out of the game files (I've been checking Artemio's English text dump against the files because some lines were missed), but no dice. If I ever play to that point in Japanese I'll screenshot it...but I don't know when that is likely to happen.

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:48 am

Hey, I found some scene transcriptions I did when I played Lunar Legend. Thought this might be of interest:

Laike: Back then I chose, of my own free will, the path joining my
destiny with Althena’s. Even though it meant I’d
lose all my power, I chose to walk that path of hope, toward
the future that Althena has entrusted to all.
After that, the Dragonmaster Dyne ceased to exist.
So far, I’ve had no regrets. / But Ghaleon...

(pause, he gestures, or looks down, or something)

Laike: Now Ghaleon is trying to revive the gods, in fact,
to make himself a god. Alex, Althena’s counting
on you to stop him, for the sake of the future.

Alex (smiling): Our future...

(Laike walks forward to the group, away from the monument)

Laike: Alex, you are to go pull out that sword. A Dragonmaster is
not just the goddess’ protector ...he represents
all of life. If you really care for Luna and all of us, pull
out that sword and becom a true Dragonmaster!

Alex [determined] A true Dragonmaster...

(He walks forward to the sword, grasps it, and closes his eyes)

Alex [determined] (A Dragonmaster.. The live I’ve always wanted...)

(fade briefly to sprite view of him and Luna at the monument at night, then back to the scene)

Alex [determined] (Luna... Here I go!)

(He pulls it out, then hold it up as light comes from it. Fade to pic of him as dragonmaster, then back to the main scene, with him now dressed as Dragonmaster. Music changes to the same piece used in SSSC for that part of the scene.)

Nall [cheerful] Whoah! Cool!!

Kyle [grinning] Wow! I feel about 100 times stronger! OK, everyone! Now
we’re buffed up and ready to go put that goon Ghaleon in the
ground! Let’s go!

Jessica [cheerful] Ditto!

Mia [smiling] May we also feel the power that Althena perceives in us!

Nash [pensive] Wait a sec. How are we gonna get to Althena’s City?
I don’t think the airship can fly that high.

Mia [pensive] Dragonmasters of old flew to the sky, mounted on Dragons.

Jessica [pensive] That’d be nice. But Dragons don’t exist, anywhere...

Laike [laughing] Ha ha! But there is a Dragon here for Alex: Nall!

(He looks at Nall, who turns and looks back at him. Pause, then everyone else shows shock.)

[all] What!?

Nall [sad] Yeah!
Nall [normal] It’s finally clear to me! I know what I am! I can feel the
power that was dormant in me, just like the new
power you feel! / So, let’s go! / Off to save Luna!!

(fade to pic of Nall as adult dragon)

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:10 pm

I'm looking over the beginning of my notes on SSSC (a 236-page document and I think it only goes up to, like, Lann) and found the quote of Alex's father about going with Dyne:

Noah: Alex…! You got that ring from the White Dragon Cave? I’m so proud that you were able to find it! I always knew you would be chosen by Quark.
- When I was your age, I went with Dyne to the cave…and I helped him retrieve the Ring. It was Dyne’s first adventure. He then journeyed to the Continent and became one of the Four Heroes. I stayed here in Burg because I felt I would only hold him back.

Incidentally, while reading this, I got annoyed all over again at the plot change from TSS to SSSC with Althena deciding to permanently retire from being a Goddess. Because this no longer makes sense:

Quark: This is but the first small step of your long adventure, young Alex.
Alex [worried]: The…first step?
Quark: Ah, yes. The time is upon us. And more importantly, Alex… you have the green eyes. When last I gazed upon eyes like yours, it was the shining face of Dyne I beheld…
Alex [worried]: The Dragonmaster…
Quark: Why do you act so surprised? Anyone who looks into your eyes can see it, Alex… The desire to become a Dragonmaster burns within your very soul.

Quark knows Luna is Althena (although when you first meet him he's either forgotten or dissembling, but he's certainly able to confirm to Ghaleon who Luna is). But he doesn't know Ghaleon is planning something, obviously. So...what's the rush for there to be a new Dragonmaster? Does Quark not know that Althena intended to make this her last rebirth, presumably making Dragonmasters obsolete? Would she really have concealed that from the Dragons but not the Dragonmaster? Or...is the plan to continue having Dragonmasters even without the Goddess, in case of incidental problems requiring them? Maybe they intended for Dragonmasters to continue (Dyne didn't intend to lose all his power when helping Althena transform, it's just that something went wrong) to conceal from the public that Althena no longer existed -- but then what's the point of making people less dependent on her?

Seriously, the whole premise of Alex trying to become a Dragonmaster seems like a cruel trick perpetrated by Quark when you know there's not supposed to be a Goddess any more. The green eyes thing bugs me too, for a similar reason. In TSS, I figured that Laike spread that rumor that the next Dragonmaster would have green eyes after he'd placed Luna with Alex's family and seen how Alex and Luna instantly bonded, but in SSSC, Laike of course knows that Luna doesn't intend to become the Goddess again and shouldn't need Dragonmaster protection or service.

The only way I can kinda make it work is if the Dragons knew that the Magic Emperor was arising and planning to find Althena, even if they didn't know that that was Ghaleon, and that therefore a Dragonmaster would be needed. But of course Alex doesn't know all that. It almost seems like Alex's desire to becomd a Dragonmaster is the thing that makes the opportunity to become one, independent of other events.

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Alunissage
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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:36 pm

One more thing. Alex's mother says in SSS that "Your father went adventuring with Dragonmaster Dyne when he was your age." Somehow I had always assumed that Noah and Dyne were older than 15 (Alex's age in SSS; he's 17 in TSS). Though I suppose we don't know that Noah and Dyne are the same age.

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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:19 am

I always thought that Althea's choice to not return to her old role was made after then events of sssc and that her rebirth was a consequence of having to save the world she had to use too much of her power and was made human .

I know she made herself human from time to time but this time was not planned ahead of time but she had to to restore Lunar

But I could be wrong.

My problem was not with Quark but Ghaloen still kidnaping singers to find the goddess when a DRAGON told him who she was

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Re: Four heros

Postby S.ninja » Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:23 am

Also Alunissage you files on Lunar are awesome ! You rock

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Re: Four heros

Postby Shiva Indis » Fri Nov 23, 2018 3:02 pm

Alunissage wrote:I'm looking over the beginning of my notes on SSSC (a 236-page document and I think it only goes up to, like, Lann) and found the quote of Alex's father about going with Dyne:


Wow, supposing that is about 1/8 of the game content, if your notes were published it would take multiple volumes. I'm impressed!

Alunissage wrote:So...what's the rush for there to be a new Dragonmaster? Does Quark not know that Althena intended to make this her last rebirth, presumably making Dragonmasters obsolete? Would she really have concealed that from the Dragons but not the Dragonmaster? Or...is the plan to continue having Dragonmasters even without the Goddess, in case of incidental problems requiring them? Maybe they intended for Dragonmasters to continue (Dyne didn't intend to lose all his power when helping Althena transform, it's just that something went wrong) to conceal from the public that Althena no longer existed -- but then what's the point of making people less dependent on her?


It did all fit together better in the Sega CD continuity -- the divine hierarchy is still fully intact in the first game so there's no reason to question what parts of it are still functional or necessary. Let's suppose that since there are still Dragons, there can still be a Dragonmaster. But supposing that, Hiro fully qualifies himself but none of the Dragons ever mention the possibility.
「まあいいけど。」

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Alunissage
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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:39 pm

Well, to be fair, a lot of that is transcription, and I'm setting up a better framework for that now. And it turns out that my notes go up to a little after Mel gets turned to stone. It just seems like every time I replay this game Lann is about where I pause, for some reason.

I would guess that in EB, the issue with Zophar and Lucia's presence overrides the concern about there being a Dragonmaster. Lucia and Zophar both predate the institution of Dragonmasters on Lunar (since we know the first Dragonmaster helped terraform Lunar, so they couldn't have been a longstanding tradition on the Blue Star), and given that the long-term purpose of Lunar is to preserve the population and accumulate power for the restoration of the Blue Star, the dragonmaster might not even be considered relevant if it appears that that time is near. Presumably the Blue and Black Dragons already know that Althena isn't around, so they may not see a reason to talk about Dragonmasterhood. Nall, of course, has his own reasons and criteria, not to mention carrying Althena's Sword -- so he can choose or withhold it as he sees fit. Ruby, obviously, is out of the loop on all of it.

It strikes me that the Star Dragon is essentially administering a new kind of trial to Hiro -- to determine his worth as leader of the return to the Blue Star. Perhaps this role would be considered to supersede the Dragonmaster role, which might even fit with Nall giving Hiro Althena's Sword in the epilogue (when his goal has changed from defeating Zophar to getting to the Blue Star). One could argue that the (retconned by Lunar 2) reason for the Dragonmaster's existence is ultimately to guard against Zophar, since Althena, despite defeating him on the Blue Star, inexplicably brought him along to imprison him on Lunar. Sure, she could presumably defeat him again if he happened to get free, but possibly she'd have to annihilate Lunar as she did the Blue Star to do so, while a Dragonmaster might be able to take a more surgical approach. I'm well into speculation territory here though.

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Re: Four heros

Postby Alunissage » Sat Nov 24, 2018 11:42 pm

Regarding Noah being injured, I found the reference to that: it's in Lunar Legend.

Thalia: “In his youth his father did go on an adventure to the Continent with Dyne. In the end, he was hurt on the way and returned to Burg.”

Sadly, my LL notes, at least the ones that are typed up, are much barer than my SSSC notes, so that's one of the few bits of dialogue I recorded. (It's "his" father in the quote because you're controlling Luna at the time without Alex, possibly the only time in any Lunar 1 that Alex isn't in the party.) I know I took some handwritten notes for both LL and HSS, but am not sure where I wrote them...


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