Sequel or Prequel

For discussion of rumors of any new Lunar games, including the nonexistent Lunar 3

Lunar 3 should it be Sequel or Prequel

Prequel
7
26%
Sequel
20
74%
 
Total votes: 27
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Shaolina
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Shaolina » Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:30 pm

I would like a prequel if it's about Dyne's first adventure (and if it has him meeting Althena in my favorite form) or a female dragon master for a change... :D but if not... then a sequel
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Deathblood » Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:55 pm

[quote="Kizyr"]If they do a prequel, it'll likely end up like another Lunar: Dragon Song. Also, they tend to really screw with continuity that way...

I agree there. And I would like to see it where everything was peacefull and BOOM! War. A soldier going into combat and gets allies and then leaves the job of soldier and goes for some adventure and then they find out more about their past and meets the dragons. And then BOOM! Another big thing suddenly occurs. Or something like that. I would definetly buy it. Of course that isn't a lot like Lunar, but people could probally tweak that a bit to make it like a Lunar sequel. Right?
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Old Jericho » Mon Aug 25, 2008 2:48 am

SwordKing wrote:Although I would prefer a sequel to a prequel, I do have one minor concern about making a sequel. Hiro, Lucia, and their companions defeated Zophar, the equivalent of Satan in the Lunar Universe. How could the sequel possibly top something like that?

I've thought that making a sequel set in a future Lunar where no-one really believes in Althena would be pretty powerful. I mean, if you had a certain protagonist sent to bring the people back from their listlessness, that might work. Really, I find relativism and simply not caring far scarier than straight up evil.

And yes, I've already written the script in my own little fanboy head.
And done character sketchings.
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby White Shadow » Tue Aug 26, 2008 1:44 am

SwordKing wrote:Although I would prefer a sequel to a prequel, I do have one minor concern about making a sequel. Hiro, Lucia, and their companions defeated Zophar, the equivalent of Satan in the Lunar Universe. How could the sequel possibly top something like that?


Well, for starters, Zophar cannot be permanently destroyed. Since his existence comes from the evil inclinations that humans and other mortals possess, as long as mortals have evil in their hearts, Zophar can be revived. Therefore, Zophar could, at least in theory, come back as the villian in another game.

That said, why would they even need to top it? The villian doesn't have to be as epic as Zophar for the game to be enjoyable, for the plot to be well-constructed or for the characters to be memorable.


Personally, of the 'prequel' and 'sequel' choices I'd prefer a sequel, but I wouldn't mind a 'midquel' (taking place between SSS and EB) either.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:22 am

White Shadow wrote:Well, for starters, Zophar cannot be permanently destroyed. Since his existence comes from the evil inclinations that humans and other mortals possess, as long as mortals have evil in their hearts, Zophar can be revived. Therefore, Zophar could, at least in theory, come back as the villian in another game.

While I don't disagree with your conclusion -- after all, there are references to an evil demigod having been sealed away previously in the very first Lunar game, and the fact that Althena sealed Zophar rather than destroyed him suggests that he could not actually be destroyed -- I don't think your reasoning is entirely correct. I'm pretty sure that Zophar's existence doesn't come from the evil inclinations of humans; rather, he's an independent being comparable with Althena. I think it's even said somewhere that he arrived at the Blue Star, not that he was, hm, evoked or incarnated there. Furthermore, the line about his never being defeated is a WD addition, at least in the remake, and I think in the original as well (although Kizyr only mentions it in his list of J to E differences for the remake).

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Nobiyuki77 » Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:47 pm

I've never played the Japanese version of EB on Mega CD, but I don't think he says the bit about never being completely defeat in the Japanese Saturn game.
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:27 pm

Yes, that's what I said. From http://lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php :

Location: Zophar's Domain - after defeating Zophar
English: Zophar says he can never be truly defeated, just before being finally defeated. Zophar: "I... am ZOPHAR! Architect of Anarchy, Lord of Darkness and the Master of Mayhem! I will never be completely defeated... never."

Japanese: Zophar doesn't say he can never be truly defeated.
Zophar: "...I am Zophar... God of darkness... and destruction... a complete god... Ahh!!"

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Kizyr » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:31 pm

Zophar doesn't say he can never be truly defeated in either of the Japanese games, I believe. I did record his dialogue (well, wrote it all down) from both the English and Japanese remakes (for the Playstation and Saturn), and those are mentioned in the J-E Differences page:
http://www.lunar-net.com/ebc/ebc_diff.php

However, he does have some similar dialogue at the end of the Eternal Blue novelization:
(from http://www.lunar-net.com/novels/eb3.php)
Zophar: Fools... A single human and a single sword? Not Lucia... not Althena... but a human? How... was a god... defeated by...
Lucia: Zophar, do yo not understand?
Zophar: No... I understand... That sword... was not created by... man... It had the power... of Althena... within...
-Zophar's voice began to fade. It grew more uneasy, more anxious.-
Zophar: But... remember this... Humanity... is what... restored me... And humanity... will once again... ... ...
-Zophar's voice trailed off.-
Lucia: Zophar, no matter how many times you may, humanity will always rise up to stop you. That is the power of humanity, the true power of Althena.


I think the key word is "restored". I'd have to double-check, but I do recall that the word used was specifically one implying restoration, not creation. KF

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby White Shadow » Tue Aug 26, 2008 5:42 pm

Alunissage wrote:I'm pretty sure that Zophar's existence doesn't come from the evil inclinations of humans; rather, he's an independent being comparable with Althena.


The Lunar 2 manga seems to disagree with that opinion, instead favoring the idea that all three 'gods/goddesses' (Lucia, Zophar and Althena) are the result of humans belief in them.

I'm not saying the manga is 'right', only that that's the direction they went in on that issue and it's the one that I personally follow.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:38 pm

The manga also cuts Ghaleon out entirely. It's an interesting retelling of the story, but I wouldn't call it definitive. Further, it wouldn't make sense for Lucia to be a product of human belief, since no one knew she existed (other than the dragons).

Hm. In the 30 Questions with Kei Shigema:
3. What's the connection between Althena and Lucia? When Althena was on
the Blue Star, where was Lucia?

Althena, Lucia, and Zophar are all probably the same type of entity. They
are said to be gods, and while that's possible, the truth is probably a
little different. So, then, what are they? Well...we really don't know.
C'mon, this isn't sci-fi; gimme a break if I can't be clear on everything
<g>.

On the other hand...
27. Does Zophar's Keep symbolize the evil thoughts of humans?

The "evil thoughts of humans" is basically what Zophar is, isn't he?

Note also that Althena created the world of Lunar BEFORE it was needed, as a project of her own (from the EB prologue). I think this suggests a greater role of autonomy than simply existing to be worshipped by people. More to the point, almost no one knew that she had given up goddesshood -- so people still believed in her, and if she were created by belief then she wouldn't have gone out of existence, or would have been called back into being herself when people started believing in the False Althena!

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby White Shadow » Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:41 am

Alunissage wrote:The manga also cuts Ghaleon out entirely. It's an interesting retelling of the story, but I wouldn't call it definitive.


I've always thought of the manga as an abridgement of the game with subtle changes rather than a stand-alone telling of the story. Why? Because it does largely follow the game but cuts out very large portions of it. The defeating of Lunn, Borgan and Mauri and the restoration of the power of the dragons was cut from being at a quarter of the game to being a tiny fraction of the manga. Ghaleon never shows his face, but the scenes in which he appeared were removed anyway, so there's no reason for him to have appeared. If it's just an abridgement, he could still have been there, behind the scenes. The manga's plot is incomplete and full of unexplained holes without the game to fill in the details.

Alunissage wrote:Further, it wouldn't make sense for Lucia to be a product of human belief, since no one knew she existed (other than the dragons).


Do people need knowledge that a goddess exists to fulfill their hopes and dreams to return to the Blue Star for such a goddess to exist? I'm not convinced.

I don't see why they'd have to know that the deity exists; prior to the False Althena taking over Althena's Cult and redirecting it to the service of Zophar, no one knew he existed either (except maybe Damon?), but that didn't stop him from leaving a black mark on Lunar's history.

The point is that there were enough humans who desired to return to the Blue Star and who worshipped and venerated the Blue Star to create Lucia and maintain her existence, regardless of whether or not they themselves were aware of it.

At least, that's my take on it.


Alunissage wrote:Note also that Althena created the world of Lunar BEFORE it was needed, as a project of her own (from the EB prologue). I think this suggests a greater role of autonomy than simply existing to be worshipped by people. More to the point, almost no one knew that she had given up goddesshood -- so people still believed in her, and if she were created by belief then she wouldn't have gone out of existence, or would have been called back into being herself when people started believing in the False Althena!


At least initially after the events of SS, didn't Althena's Cult adopt teachings that indicated that Althena no longer existed in the same sense that she did previously? I'd venture that they adopted teachings that the goal of Althena's Cult is not to worship the Goddess or build beautiful structures and memorials to her, but instead teaching and seeking her wisdom.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:01 am

The one reference in SSSC to Lucia's existence was a book that said that Althena left a girl behind on the Blue Star. Althena, not humans. When Zophar rose to power on the Blue Star, humans appealed to Althena, even though later Lucia was the caretaker of the Blue Star after Althena guided humans to and on Lunar. There is just no reason for human belief to have brought Lucia into existence. Would their yearning for the Blue Star -- which they'd forgotten they ever inhabited -- have created not only Lucia but her knowledge of the Blue Spire's role as a storage battery for the power to restore the Blue Star (in EB), not to mention the tower she sleeps in, the recognition that the dragons and the Sentry have for her, etc? Really, I can't see any way this makes sense. Althena is stated repeatedly to be a god of creation; you think she can't have brought Lucia into existence on her own?

As you say, the manga leaves out a lot of elements of the story. Why would you cherry-pick the one that Althena, Lucia, and Zophar are products of human belief out of it? If that's indeed what it says; it's been a while since I read the translation, and I don't know if you are basing that on the same translation (which I think is the only one out there right now) or if you read Japanese and how fluently.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby White Shadow » Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:40 am

Alunissage wrote:The one reference in SSSC to Lucia's existence was a book that said that Althena left a girl behind on the Blue Star. Althena, not humans. When Zophar rose to power on the Blue Star, humans appealed to Althena, even though later Lucia was the caretaker of the Blue Star after Althena guided humans to and on Lunar. There is just no reason for human belief to have brought Lucia into existence.


I'm not following your logic here. Please elaborate? :?


Alunissage wrote:Would their yearning for the Blue Star -- which they'd forgotten they ever inhabited -- have created not only Lucia but her knowledge of the Blue Spire's role as a storage battery for the power to restore the Blue Star (in EB), not to mention the tower she sleeps in, the recognition that the dragons and the Sentry have for her, etc? Really, I can't see any way this makes sense.


Under what justification would you argue they forgot? While thousands of years of history would relegate such to category of myth, I recall the people in Eternal Blue noting that there were stories of people living on the Blue Star, even if they had less historical currency because of how far in the past it was.


Alunissage wrote:Althena is stated repeatedly to be a god of creation; you think she can't have brought Lucia into existence on her own?


It's not so much a matter of my thinking she wouldn't have been capable of it... I just don't think it's likely, per se.


Alunissage wrote:Why would you cherry-pick the one that Althena, Lucia, and Zophar are products of human belief out of it?


Generally speaking, I work under the idea that unless two things from different sources are absolutely mutually exclusive, they are both true. If they are absoluetly mutually exclusive, I pick the one I think makes the most sense to me. Admittedly, this may be colored by how I look at the world in general, my philosophical, religious and political views, etc. (This is just how I'm used to dealing with canon conflict, since it's what I'd do to address my own religous matters, another area where canon conflicts can be a relevant problem.)

Alunissage wrote:If that's indeed what it says; it's been a while since I read the translation, and I don't know if you are basing that on the same translation (which I think is the only one out there right now) or if you read Japanese and how fluently.


I do not own the Lunar 2 manga; what I read was a translation and I do not know if it was the same one you did. I can read Japanese quite well, but since I do not own the magna I do not have the Japanese text to refer to so whether I can read the language is a moot point.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:51 am

White Shadow wrote:
Alunissage wrote:The one reference in SSSC to Lucia's existence was a book that said that Althena left a girl behind on the Blue Star. Althena, not humans. When Zophar rose to power on the Blue Star, humans appealed to Althena, even though later Lucia was the caretaker of the Blue Star after Althena guided humans to and on Lunar. There is just no reason for human belief to have brought Lucia into existence.
I'm not following your logic here. Please elaborate? :?
Okay. At what time do you propose that Lucia came into existence, if you believe that to have been via human belief? Such incarnation would have to be either before or after they go to Lunar. If before, why? They had a goddess, Althena, and it was to her that they appealed to for help (as shown in the flashback in EBC). If they needed to believe in a second goddess, why not appeal to her to help them? Why would they not have known about her after going to Lunar? Why would they have ceased worshipping her and only worshipping Althena? I just can’t see a motivating factor here. If she exists prior to the departure, which seems likely enough given that she narrates the events leading to the exodus, why does she not refer to interacting with humans? Why would she know nothing at all of humans, their “warmth, kindness, and greatness”?

On the other hand, if she came into being because of humans’ needs to believe that she would take care of their home for them, how did that result in the tower she’s in being built? How could the book in SSSC then say that Althena left a girl behind, if she didn’t exist at the time of Althena’s departure? Why would, except for that one reference, she have been forgotten if it was only through belief that she existed?

By the way, I’m reasonably certain that there’s a reference to Zophar coming to the Blue Star, not merely arising there. I was searching the EBC screenshots for it, since I think it’d be during that flashback, but most of the links in that section appear to be broken. :| If I remember, I’ll at least look up the script of that scene in the guide when I get home.

White Shadow wrote:
Alunissage wrote:Would their yearning for the Blue Star -- which they'd forgotten they ever inhabited -- have created not only Lucia but her knowledge of the Blue Spire's role as a storage battery for the power to restore the Blue Star (in EB), not to mention the tower she sleeps in, the recognition that the dragons and the Sentry have for her, etc? Really, I can't see any way this makes sense.
Under what justification would you argue they forgot? While thousands of years of history would relegate such to category of myth, I recall the people in Eternal Blue noting that there were stories of people living on the Blue Star, even if they had less historical currency because of how far in the past it was.
The very first thing you see about the game is that the inhabitants of Lunar don’t know the background of where they came from.
http://lunar-net.com/eb/screens/1/image ... UE_005.jpg
http://lunar-net.com/eb/screens/1/image ... UE_006.jpg

Admittedly, there are books in the game which do talk a bit about legends of the Blue Star, etc. But those aren’t necessarily known to all the inhabitants or even read much.

White Shadow wrote:
Alunissage wrote:Althena is stated repeatedly to be a god of creation; you think she can't have brought Lucia into existence on her own?
It's not so much a matter of my thinking she wouldn't have been capable of it... I just don't think it's likely, per se.
That’s the most puzzling thing you’ve said yet, to me. Why would it be unlikely that she created Lucia? She moved people off their native planet to Lunar. She knew that someone would need to be on hand to watch over the place and facilitate its restoration and repopulation -- she may have considered the possibility that she wouldn’t be around at that point, although I suspect it’d be the other way around, that she wouldn’t have stepped down to become mortal if Lucia hadn’t already existed. Lucia is definite that her mission, and her job as caretaker of the Blue Star, is the entire reason for her existence. It’s not much of a jump to assume that she was created -- by the Goddess of Creation* -- for that purpose. But it DOES seem unlikely to me that human belief created her for that role, complete with Blue Tower, Blue Spire, energy gatherer therein, Star Dragon/Sentry and other dragons who know who she is, recognition of Althena's aura or lack thereof... heck, recognition of Zophar, who unquestionably knows who she is and vice versa.

* Regarding Althena, see this in Kizyr’s list of differences for that game:
English: Althena not referred to as goddess of anything in particular in intro.
Japanese: Althena referred to as Goddess of Creation in intro.
"Long, long ago, the Goddess of Creation, Althena, blessed the land of death with great magic power and turned it into a land abundant with green."
http://lunar-net.com/eb/diff/EB_J_000.gif

White Shadow wrote:
Alunissage wrote:Why would you cherry-pick the one that Althena, Lucia, and Zophar are products of human belief out of it?
Generally speaking, I work under the idea that unless two things from different sources are absolutely mutually exclusive, they are both true. If they are absoluetly mutually exclusive, I pick the one I think makes the most sense to me. Admittedly, this may be colored by how I look at the world in general, my philosophical, religious and political views, etc. (This is just how I'm used to dealing with canon conflict, since it's what I'd do to address my own religous matters, another area where canon conflicts can be a relevant problem.)
I can see that, and I usually try to reconcile things as far as possible before declaring that some source is less convincing than another. That’s why I refer to both versions of the games, etc. But I just think that that concept is not supported by the games or even necessarily the novels (you saw Kizyr’s post above saying that the EB novels said that Zophar says that humanity restored him, right?) and as such is suspect.

White Shadow wrote:
Alunissage wrote:If that's indeed what it says; it's been a while since I read the translation, and I don't know if you are basing that on the same translation (which I think is the only one out there right now) or if you read Japanese and how fluently.
I do not own the Lunar 2 manga; what I read was a translation and I do not know if it was the same one you did. I can read Japanese quite well, but since I do not own the magna I do not have the Japanese text to refer to so whether I can read the language is a moot point.
Perhaps Kizyr can take a look at it; I know it’s in his queue to translate. In the meantime, I’ll dig out the translation I read and see if I find the reference. By the way, I wasn’t trying to imply that you were making it up, or anything like that, only that translation is an inexact science, while if you were reading the original, fluently, you may well have picked up on something the translator whose work I read missed. And sometimes people simply make errors; there have been several instances where WD’s rendition is simply off that can be traced to a likely error in the translation they based their localization on.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby White Shadow » Thu Aug 28, 2008 4:00 am

Alunissage wrote:Okay. At what time do you propose that Lucia came into existence, if you believe that to have been via human belief? Such incarnation would have to be either before or after they go to Lunar.


At the time humans left and expressed desire to return. I'm not convinced that knowledge of a deity they are bringing to power is necessary for such to occur. Most of the people in Althena's Cult did not know that the purpose of the Cult was to revive Zophar. That said, their selfish actions, encouraged by the leaders of the Cult, allowed Zophar to be revived anyway.


Alunissage wrote:On the other hand, if she came into being because of humans’ needs to believe that she would take care of their home for them, how did that result in the tower she’s in being built? How could the book in SSSC then say that Althena left a girl behind, if she didn’t exist at the time of Althena’s departure?


Did Althena leave at the same time as everyone else? Furthermore, is it necessary for us to assume that she made only one trip? Althena could have lived easily on the surface of the Blue Star, much as Lucia can. It is conceivable that after bringing the humans to Lunar she may have returned to the Blue Star to set up the machine that would restore the Blue Star's atmosphere and surface using the magical energy from Lunar.



Alunissage wrote:Why would, except for that one reference, she have been forgotten if it was only through belief that she existed?


I'm not sure if in the humans-create-gods line of thinking the humans need continual belief to maintain the existence of the being, but this discussion could very easily drift out of Lunar so we might not want to continue on this point.


Alunissage wrote:By the way, I’m reasonably certain that there’s a reference to Zophar coming to the Blue Star, not merely arising there.


That may well be the case. I don't know if Zophar originated on the Blue Star, came to the Blue Star from elsewhere... Another possibility is that this isn't the first time the Blue Star has been destroyed, but there's no evidence to support that since it'd be so long ago that there's simply no record of it in any of the games or other material. The events prior to humans leaving the Blue Star for Lunar are so prehistoric that I'd care not to speculate too much.


Alunissage wrote:That’s the most puzzling thing you’ve said yet, to me. Why would it be unlikely that she created Lucia? She moved people off their native planet to Lunar. She knew that someone would need to be on hand to watch over the place and facilitate its restoration and repopulation -- she may have considered the possibility that she wouldn’t be around at that point, although I suspect it’d be the other way around, that she wouldn’t have stepped down to become mortal if Lucia hadn’t already existed.


My original interpretation is that Lucia was created by Althena both to oversee the Blue Star and as a sort of back-up plan in case Althena were incapacitated and Zophar was reviving, but the manga and what I've read of the novels and Shigema's interviews have shifted my views to my current approach. The first EB novel states pretty explicitly that Lucia and Althena have never met. While I wouldn't argue that Althena can't create Lucia unconscious, it just seems silly that Althena would create Lucia and make her socially inept and unaware of her creator's presence.

If I were Althena, I'd at least have created her wtih basic knowledge of the norms and customs of the mortal species (incudling, notably, how nudity is treated).


Alunissage wrote:But it DOES seem unlikely to me that human belief created her for that role, complete with Blue Tower, Blue Spire, energy gatherer therein, Star Dragon/Sentry and other dragons who know who she is, recognition of Althena's aura or lack thereof... heck, recognition of Zophar, who unquestionably knows who she is and vice versa.


I'd guess the buildings were constructed by Althena. I've thought of the Blue Spire as a structure built to provide privileged transportation between Lunar and the Blue Star for Althena herself, Lucia, the Dragons and possibly VIPs selected by one of them. The Star Dragon Tower's purpose was to, when the Blue Star was restored, be the means to allow people to go between the settlements on both worlds, almost like a train. (The structure of the Tower does not support this hypothesis, but it is supported by some of the dialogue. That said, the map of Meribia doesn't support it being a massive metropolis either, so I don't take the maps too seriously.)


Alunissage wrote:But I just think that that concept is not supported by the games or even necessarily the novels (you saw Kizyr’s post above saying that the EB novels said that Zophar says that humanity restored him, right?) and as such is suspect.


Then I guess we agree to disagree?

And yes, I saw his post.

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Alunissage » Mon Sep 01, 2008 8:06 am

Sorry for the late reply. I started reading the manga translation (by Rebecca Capowski, whose translation I do trust for nuance) and c/p'ing stuff to quote and it just got too long. The summary is, yes, the manga does seem to support the idea that human need created (evoked?) Althena and Lucia. However, I'm not sure that that's making a statement about the Lunarverse itself so much as what Lucia herself comes to believe:
[pg. 132]
Zophar: You may deny me my existence,
but it was the humans' hearts that revived me.
I awoke because the people bade it.

Lucia: The humans' inability to destroy you was the reason for Althena's
birth...
and my existence.

[pg. 150]
Lucia (thinking): Humans
gave birth to Zophar.

[pg. 156]
Lucia (sidling up to Hiero damsel-in-distress-like): Zophar.
If negative human emotions - the power which invites death - were what
spawned you,
then it is human thought - their hearts which love and care for others,
their power to believe - which composes Althena's power.
You, Althena, I myself -
the wishes of the people gave form to all of us.

While Lucia may have come into existence because of the harm Zophar wrought, I'm still not convinced that the intended meaning is that Althena and Zophar came into existence as well from human wishes, just that their roles as "gods" did. That is, Althena may have already existed (the beginning of the manga says that she "descended") but was called upon to lead and help humans, thus becoming their goddess, just as Zophar became more powerful with the evil in humans' hearts lending him strength.

Comparisons between Lunar and Christianity rarely work out well, but one might make an analogy: people refer to Satan as being the opposite number to God, an evil god. Yet he began as an angel, not a being equivalent with God. Althena and Zophar, and later Lucia, may have been something more like angels, or other beings "higher" than humans, whose interactions with humans redefined them (and perhaps powered them up, so to speak) into gods, relative to humans. I actually have a whole backstory fanfic-y type of idea going with that, but since it IS essentially fanfic, I'll keep it out of this, especially since my disdain for fanfic is well known here. :P

Here's the bit from the beginning of the manga, with the backstory:
pg. 6
Long ago, Zophar, the god of destruction, appeared on the Blue
Star.
Amidst the fear and chaos, what resistance the people offered
was rendered insignificant and inconsequential before Zophar's great power.
Desperate and helpless, the people could do nothing but pray for a miracle.
Just when it looked as if the world would fall completely into the god of
destruction's hands, the goddess of creation, Althena, descended.
The goddess Althena used her power to seal Zophar away, but the gods'
battle left the Blue Star gravely scarred.
With her remaining power, the goddess filled the Blue Star's
sister planet, Lunar, with water and lush life
and led the Blue Star's few surviving humans there.
Reincarnating herself over and over, she continued to send forth the power
needed to revive the Blue Star.
However, somewhere, sometime, at some point, Althena disappeared from the
people.
The tales of both her existence and the genesis of Lunar were relegated to
arcane legend...
And so the people forgot - about the history of the Blue Star...
and about the existence of another goddess...
My reactions to "Zophar appeared" and "Althena descended" are that they already existed and mainly arrived on the scene. It would take a fluent reader of Japanese to determine whether that interpretation is supported by the actual text, though. I imagine Kizyr will address it when he gets to that manga.

I should probably also note that that account directly contradicts the opening text in both EB and EBC, which state that Althena terraformed Lunar as a separate project, before the need for a refuge arose, and make no reference to power usage and output (other than the Blue Spire collecting power, of course -- which is not in the version of the game on which this manga is based). Also, to address a point earlier in our discussion, people forgot about the history of the Blue Star and of Lucia. So in this version they knew about her already, once. The next scene in the manga is of Hiro looking at the reliefs, ending with one of Lucia sleeping, and wondering who she is. On the other hand, Althena herself is called a myth, which I don't recall ever happening in the games. That is, I don't remember anyone doubting the existence of Althena.

Here's a bit that directly contradicts the novels but I think matches the implications of the games better:
page 39 wrote:
[Lucia sees Althena (or remembers a meeting with her in her dreams). The
Dragonmaster is behind Althena; we can't tell exactly _which_ Dragonmaster,
as the face is indistinct.]

Althena (in dream): I entrust the fate of this planet to you.
One day, the Blue Star will be reborn. Until then...

[We see that Hiero has set sail. It's night.]

Lucia (thinking in dream): I am the guardian of the Blue Star.
With the power of Althena that emanates from Lunar - my planet will
revive.

Okay, so much for the manga. I also checked the EBC strategy guide. Excerpts from the animecheck:
Lucia, in 'Death of the Blue Star', wrote:Long ago, Zophar, the god of destruction and darkness, came to the Blue Star.
[description of Zophar as a malicious monster; carvings depicting war]
He preyed on mankind's greed for wealth and power, creating anarchy and chaos where there once was peace and love. Mankind fought one another with furious anger, spilling the blood of others without thought of consequence.
[description of carving showing Zophar floating]
Feeding on the dark desire within the hearts of humans, Zophar's power grew exponentially.
[Etc. Used power to pervert mankind, resulting in wild humans transformed into hideous beasts, and so on.]
[Description of carving of people kneeling to Althena in supplication]
The people suffering under Zophar's tribulation implored Althena to rescue them.
[Etc.]

The point is, he (1) came to the Blue Star, (2) was shown as a monster before the description of his preying on mankind's greed, and (3) grew in power from that preying. (I've always thought her use of "exponentially" in that line was dumb, though. She's not using specific mathematical concepts for anything else, why throw that in there?) All that suggests to me that he already existed and used the leverage of what greed already existed in humans to create the positive feedback loop -- maybe that would have been a better phrase for Lucia :P -- that made him more powerful and humans more monstrous.

And the people "implored Althena to rescue them." While I don't know how literal a translation that is, it's interesting that the term "rescue" is used rather than "save" -- it suggests to me that they didn't normally rely on Althena to help them, and thus that she may not have been their goddess at that time. Note that it was only after some untold length of time on Lunar that she felt that humans were too dependent on her (in SSS continuity); they clearly were not that dependent on her previously. This also suggests to me that the burden of rescuing and guiding them is one she took on because she was asked to, not because it was her reason for being. If she could remember a time when they governed themselves, that might make her more inclined to think they could do it again... not to mention just plain being tired of being a nursemaid all those years. Actually, this line of thought makes SSS's version somewhat acceptable for the first time.

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Old Jericho
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Old Jericho » Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:57 am

Alunissage wrote:Comparisons between Lunar and Christianity rarely work out well, but one might make an analogy: people refer to Satan as being the opposite number to God, an evil god. Yet he began as an angel, not a being equivalent with God. Althena and Zophar, and later Lucia, may have been something more like angels, or other beings "higher" than humans, whose interactions with humans redefined them (and perhaps powered them up, so to speak) into gods, relative to humans. I actually have a whole backstory fanfic-y type of idea going with that, but since it IS essentially fanfic, I'll keep it out of this, especially since my disdain for fanfic is well known here. :P


Funny you should mention that, cause I got my own fanficky idea stuck in the back of my head. I'm not a big fan of my own fanfic ideas, as they tend to fly flagrantly in the face of canon. Of course, with the direction the Lunar series is (or is not) going right now, any of our ideas are probably just as likely to be made canon as anybody else's.
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Kizyr
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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Kizyr » Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:29 pm

This might not be a great response, but I took a cursory glance at the pages Alun referenced in the manga. The wording sounds like it could imply something in either direction (Alun or White Shadow's argument).

I'll try to take a closer look and see if there's some nuance I missed, and something expanded upon in the surrounding text. Though I should mention that it does fly in the face of what's directly said in the game openings--EB in particular. KF

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby Kizyr » Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:57 pm

Alunissage wrote:While Lucia may have come into existence because of the harm Zophar wrought, I'm still not convinced that the intended meaning is that Althena and Zophar came into existence as well from human wishes, just that their roles as "gods" did. That is, Althena may have already existed (the beginning of the manga says that she "descended") but was called upon to lead and help humans, thus becoming their goddess, just as Zophar became more powerful with the evil in humans' hearts lending him strength.
...
My reactions to "Zophar appeared" and "Althena descended" are that they already existed and mainly arrived on the scene. It would take a fluent reader of Japanese to determine whether that interpretation is supported by the actual text, though. I imagine Kizyr will address it when he gets to that manga.


The opening language that Zophar appeared most likely implies that he already existed. The word used is a bit vague ("appeared" is fitting in its ambiguity). But the most likely interpretation is that he already existed and then appeared on the Blue Star. The fact that much later, he says directly that it was humans who revived him on Lunar, implies this.

As for Althena, the way she "descended" unambiguously indicates that she already existed, and she came to the people of the Blue Star. Lucia's language much later in the manga, that "Althena was borne of the inability of humanity to destroy Zophar", is ambiguous as to whether Althena was born into existence, or just appeared/descended at that time. Given what was stated at the beginning of the manga, that she descended (and already was around), it sounds like the latter is the case. KF

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Re: Sequel or Prequel

Postby hamguy » Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:32 am

why is it always 1000 years after wtf! i was sad to find out that all the charecters i grew to love had died... and never see them again :cry: i wish they would make something like 2 years after sssc or lunar 2, i want to know what happend after all of that -Dragon Diamond-,or they could make a mix, like somehow they time travel and mix the sssc and lunar 2 togheter in a epic, adventrue... like in sssc alex goes to luna,but what if hiro stoped alex from doing that and they went somewere together,or hiro got lost over there and he met up with luna and alex played the ocorina and they did the adventure,you know like a mix :D... that would be great right :D


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