EBC playthrough thread

For discussion of Lunar: Eternal Blue, the remake of Lunar 2 for Saturn/Playstation and all its translations
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Temzin
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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Temzin » Sun Oct 18, 2015 3:43 am

Alunissage wrote:So I find myself constructing a backstory for them, that maybe they argued about elitism vs egalitarianism, since many NPCs talk about Miria being welcoming to both magicians and non-magicians, e.g. opening the library to all, when Borgan was still a member of the Guild. Is he made out to be as poor a magician in the Japanese game? He doesn't actually sound unintelligent, most of the time; it's just that his unattractive traits are hammed up and pounded in with the evident intent of making be someone to despise. Yet both Miria and an older man who knows Lemina well say that he and Lemina are not so different from each other.
The interesting thing about Borgan is that while he's easy to just dismiss as an ugly and unlikable villain (and all the more so in the original when he's mopping the floor with you as the game's hardest boss), there's a lot of stuff going on the background.

First, as a failure, he's interesting: I do have a distant memory of Borgan either being a poor magician or not being able to use magic at all before he sells out to Zophar. It's in the comic, and likely in the game, too. That certainly places him in the same mould as Linus and the False Althena: flawed people looking for something beyond their grasp as many people do, but taking "self-improvement" in a very dark direction.

Second, he's interesting as a symbol for what Vane was and is. If you ignore the Zophar angle, Borgan's elitist and exclusionary vision for Vane is a far better match for the city's original identity...Vane was only "democratized" in a sense by its destruction at Ghaleon's hand, ironically enough, since it literally became accessible on the ground. As in real life, there's a tension between rewarding the elite and respecting the masses. Lemina's dream of restoring Vane's glory necessarily contains a bit of the same elitism/meritocracy that Borgan imagines, and a villager even asks her about it awkwardly at one point. I think Lemina comes around to understanding restoring Vane as a historical preservation project, but until she does, the Vane she and Borgan imagine share some uncomfortable similarities. This makes Borgan an ugly foil to cute Lemina, who comes to see him as a bigger mirror image than she'd like him to be. The pointlessness of Neo-Vane really underlines how unclear it is why Vane should be restored: with Althena and the Vile Tribe gone, there is no longer a purpose for this elite institution in the sense that Borgan understands it.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:03 am

jay_are wrote:Here's a collection of other minor differences: http://s5.postimg.org/otonynqdh/Lunar_2 ... _diff1.png

I don't know if you checked the part about going up the ladder when there's more than one (human) party member, but Hiro is the only one who turns to face the ladder when climbing down. The others (I have Ronfar and Lucia in my party right now) still face forward.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Kizyr » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:33 pm

Alunissage wrote:Re seeing her stats while at a shop, I don't mean after buying the equipment. If you select a piece of equipment for sale and press the button, the people who can use it are highlighted so you can select them and see the effect on their stats. But you can select people who can't equip it too, and see their stats -- including Lucia. Then when you press the button again you get to the buy screen.

Yeah, this doesn't happen in the Japanese version -- you can see who can use the item when you select equipment, but it doesn't show you their stats (only if it increases/decreases stats or is mixed) and you can't select anyone. You have to buy first, and then you can equip it on everyone separately.

Alunissage wrote:On the game mechanics front, my little discovery last night was how the Warrior+Seal Crest combo works. The guide says that it doubles the characters ATK with a penalty of #Atks -2. The game says "Disables magic and techniques, but raises attack to full power." But the ATK stat was clearly not double that of the person equipping the pair of crests, and the ratio changed depending on high the person's ATK was -- and it was higher for Ronfar than anyone else. I finally concluded that for Hiro, Jean, and Lemina, the crest combo raises their ATK to be 2*(ATK-10), while for Ronfar it becomes 2*(ATK+5). Not a bad tradeoff for regular battles; he only has one attack anyway, so the only penalty is being unable to cast magic, and generally I don't have him healing anyone until after battle. (That said, the Sluice Forest battles were really quite punishing.) So now Ronfar's ATK is like 242, nearly double Hiro's.

The main thing that prevented me from doing this is that Ronfar's pretty useless if he can't get to any of the enemies, so I always have a Shiro Crest on him to increase his distance. I tried the Warrior+Seal Crest combo, but half the time he couldn't reach the enemies he was trying to attack, so I ditched that after a while and went back to a Shiro Crest (and now that I'm in Horam, a Shiro+Chiro Crest that ups his movement to 200). KF

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:41 am

Yeah, I haven't experimented too much with him using Warrior+Seal. You get the Warrior crest pretty close to the end of the Sluice Forest, and I haven't advanced the storyline in Azado yet.

Re Borgan, there's definitely the message that he wasn't very good at magic, but he DID belong to the Magic Guild at one point so he must have some. And really, it wouldn't make sense for him not to have any at all.

Okay, i have a question for you or jay_are: when you first get to the caravan, after Jean's dance intro, are the NPCs the same as in this screenshot?
http://lunar-net.com/ebc/screens/2/EBC1195.JPG

Specifically, are the musicians -- the woman in yellow and the two men between her and the orange guy -- in the Japanese versions? I ask because after that night, they totally vanish. They just aren't anywhere the caravan is, and they're not in the carnival, either. I think they were put in to match the dance scene, in which you can see a piper, guitarist, and drummer. But apparently they were a Plantella appetizer or something.

That dance scene is really boring, by the way. Jean actually looks like a more accomplished dancer in the sprite scene in EB, and the still of just her final pose. In the EBC scene, there are all these clips of not really much movement, and we barely see the fans themselves moving.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:37 am

I'm nearly done with Azado, having just defeated the firebird. And, my gosh, did this town get completely skipped in a round of edits? Nothing is ungrammatical or anything, but characterization all over the place and a bunch of lines kind of read to me like they were the original straight translation. (WD would have someone do a rough translation and then rewrite it.) Not all of it, but some.

Examples:

Pink-haired girl near entrance (who misses her little sister): Say, lady, does your heart hurt for someone you can’t see anymore, too?
Lucia [shocked]: How…?
Girl: Well, you looked as sad as I feel…
Lucia [sad] : …
(Hiro's right there and she doesn't seem to have that kind of relationship with Althena and she wasn't THAT tightly bonded with the kids, even though they were with her)

Ronfar [grin] Well, you were a pretty young tike when I was here last. It’s no big surprise that ya don’t remember ol’ Ronfar.
(Besides using an unusual variant of "tyke", he doesn't usually say "ya".)

Porom: Say there, Ronfar, have you finished your business in town?
(Several people use the phrase "finished your business" and the like, bizarrely repetitive. And also "Say there, ..." which seems odd for this kid and suggests substitution for a Japanese general phrase to me.)

Leo [laugh]: How does it feel, Hiro, to know that all your schemes and tricks were for naught? How does it feel to know that I have emerged victorious?
(This is just absurdly gloaty of Leo, and bizarrely personal to address to Hiro. Might make a little more sense if addressed to Lucia or Ronfar, but really, it just seems out of character.)

Ronfar [serious]: Curse the inflexibility of White Knight Leo! I bet death itself would not change his ways!
(Really? I mean, really? This is something a NPC would say, not Ronfar.)

Leo [stern] : The horror…the horror!
(This is when he sees the town in flames. I expect it's a quote, but it sure doesn't match his face.)

Leo [stern]: Now watch as I cut out the black heart of the Destroyer and feed it to the vermin.
(again, too much for Leo as he's been presented. He's one to get the job done, not engage in pointless gestures like "feed it to the vermin".)

Ronfar [serious]: You’re scared, aren’t you, Leo? You’re afraid of the truth. And it’s because your service in the Corps means everything to you…
(Is it called "the Corps" anywhere else in the game?)

Jean: Go, Hiro. I shall teach this pathetic follower the truth! Because even a follower can change if they see the truth with their own eyes!
(She's still tied up, and Leo is about to leave with Hiro and Ronfar. I don't know imperatives in Japanese, but surely it should be "Teach this pathetic follower..."?)

Priest blocking shrine: Hmmm? Lord Leo? What cause has kept you up to this late hour? You have no reason I know to come here, because I cannot let you pass.
(Cause and effect...)

Leo [stern] : There is time for thought and reflection later. We must save the city first!
[angry]: If we fail to put out the fire, the city will burn to the ground!
Hiro [determined]: Understood! / Ronfar, Leo! Let’s get this fire out!
(Wait, is Leo ordering Hiro, or is Hiro ordering Leo?)

---

Plus a whole bunch of little things that I'd chalk up to a minor miss if there weren't so many of them. And Jamil's entire character. It was halfway through his dialogue before I could decide whether he was being sarcastic to Ronfar or sincere, and I still haven't quite made up my mind. It's odd that he'd be so grateful to Ronfar and yet be such a horrible person, who the people say has cold eyes and all that. Plus his sprite is also used for a female earlier in the game.

And a more obvious error: When you talk to the man in the first house on the right about what's going on, he says "Where’s the High Priest? Pah! - Ask Kakar that kind of thing!" The only other person there is his wife, and she indeed talks about it. But after you talk to Jamil, he says:
"Kakar supports the former high priest Balse. Out of fear for his well-being, I’ve begged him to stop talking about Lord Balse. But he won't be silenced. He wishes to see Lord Balse returned to his rightful place. I fear for the life of the dim-witted bastard."

And there's some inconsistent formatting, like "...... ..." instead of "... ... ..." and The Destroyer, who doesn't normally rate a capitalized The, and someone says DragonMaster, and so on.

Anyway, I know WD didn't like the changes to Azado in the remake, but they could have been done a little better. Myself, I miss the beads, but think the general plot works well enough to prove blatantly to Leo that the problem is with the Chosen.

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Kizyr
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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Kizyr » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:22 am

I can't comment on all of it, but some of my notes do address these inconsistencies.

Alunissage wrote:And a more obvious error: When you talk to the man in the first house on the right about what's going on, he says "Where’s the High Priest? Pah! - Ask Kakar that kind of thing!" The only other person there is his wife, and she indeed talks about it. But after you talk to Jamil, he says:
"Kakar supports the former high priest Balse. Out of fear for his well-being, I’ve begged him to stop talking about Lord Balse. But he won't be silenced. He wishes to see Lord Balse returned to his rightful place. I fear for the life of the dim-witted bastard."

That was a mistranslation. He's referring to his wife (かかあ), not anyone's proper name. It should be:
"Where's the High Priest? Hm, ask my wife [kakaa] that sort of thing!"

Alunissage wrote:Leo [stern] : The horror…the horror!
(This is when he sees the town in flames. I expect it's a quote, but it sure doesn't match his face.)

Original line in Japanese wasn't a Heart of Darkness reference:
"What in the world..."

Huh, I forgot how many translation goofs there were here. The dialogue is more consistent in Japanese for everyone, but honestly at this point considering this is like my 20th time playing the game, I'm sort of skimming the dialogue. KF

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby jay_are » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:54 am

Kizyr wrote:That was a mistranslation. He's referring to his wife (かかあ), not anyone's proper name. It should be:
"Where's the High Priest? Hm, ask my wife [kakaa] that sort of thing!"


As Leo said: What in the world...
Even I can tell that's not anyone's name. Why would they translate that as Kakar?
All I can think of is:
A. they had worked too long and had lost their mind in translation at that point.
B. it became an inside joke inside the company and left it like that on purpose.

Alunissage wrote:Okay, i have a question for you or jay_are: when you first get to the caravan, after Jean's dance intro, are the NPCs the same as in this screenshot?
http://lunar-net.com/ebc/screens/2/EBC1195.JPG


Will answer this soon! I just had a week away from home so I haven't been here to read, don't know if you already found the answer.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:24 am

jay_are, there's also a request for you on the EBC tattoo thread. I found the text, but we're wondering what it says in Japanese, and Kizyr's already past that point.

Re Kakar / かかあ, this isn't the first time WD's made that particular kind of mistake. Years ago someone asked "who's Fulari?" referring to a TSS line that says Ramus left Burg for Meribia with "a girl named Fulari". Turns out, the line was more like "with great haste", but an adjective had been misread as a name. WD's modus operandi was to have someone else do a rough translation and then polish it from there, but the rough translator can get things wrong too. And, as I noted, Azado evidently was lacking some editing in general where that could have been caught. (But probably not, to be honest.)

Actually, Kizyr, is it in hiragana in the game? I've certainly noticed katakana being used for emphasis at times...?

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Kizyr » Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:12 pm

jay_are wrote:As Leo said: What in the world...
Even I can tell that's not anyone's name. Why would they translate that as Kakar?

It's actually pretty understandable. かかあ is an obscure word and one that I wouldn't have recognized without looking it up (and even then it's not in some standard dictionaries). The only hints were that it was written as if it were a word with an obscure character (カカア), not as if it were a name (in which case it'd be written as カカー). If you have reams of text to translate, then I can see how it'd be easy to make that mistake -- I've made a similar one in the past with Lunar: Legend.

Alunissage wrote:Actually, Kizyr, is it in hiragana in the game? I've certainly noticed katakana being used for emphasis at times...?

It's katakana. Katakana isn't only used for foreign loanwords; you'll often also see it to make a word stand out (not the same as emphasizing it), or for words that have an obscure or difficult-to-read kanji character. This one is so obscure that it won't show up on word processing and wouldn't be recognizable anyway. So, it's probably a mixture of both these reasons that it was written this way. KF

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:44 pm

And it's not like there aren't other odd names there... like Balse and Porom, which became Blasé and Promo rather often in my notes.

Yeah, I know katakana is used for, well, making a word stand out, though I didn't know it was also used for obscure kanji. Seemed a lot more likely to become the error that way. Nice catch of ア instead of ー. (Okay, now I'm just glad to finally have Japanese input set up again.) You think the obscure word was used to characterize the old man as being, well, old?

Also, do you happen to remember the followup, the part that was rendered as "Kakar supports the former high priest Balse. Out of fear for his well-being, I’ve begged him to stop talking about Lord Balse. But he won't be silenced. He wishes to see Lord Balse returned to his rightful place. I fear for the life of the dim-witted bastard." ?

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Temzin » Thu Oct 29, 2015 8:56 pm

Ah, you beat me to it, I was going to build on WD's second accidental character-creating goof-up to suggest that English lore must now insist that the great Kakar is the descendant of Fulari of Burg.

Kakaa is a pretty bad mistake to make, even for a novice, and as Kiz noted, there's a big cue in the uncommon (but not impossible) formation of two katakana written vowels in a row. While no one says kakaa anymore, it's more of an affectionate Edo-era thing to call your wife, it still has a strong association with かかあ天下, kakaa-denka, which in English would track pretty closely to man referring to "the wife" or "she who must be obeyed," Rumpole-style. One of my hometowns in the Gunma valley is famous for kakaa-denka and karakkaze, "tough women and strong winds."

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:27 am

That would've been funnier. Oh well. :)

I don't think it ever occurred to me to wonder if you might be Japanese.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Kizyr » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:19 am

Alunissage wrote:And it's not like there aren't other odd names there... like Balse and Porom, which became Blasé and Promo rather often in my notes.

Yeah, I know katakana is used for, well, making a word stand out, though I didn't know it was also used for obscure kanji. Seemed a lot more likely to become the error that way. Nice catch of ア instead of ー. (Okay, now I'm just glad to finally have Japanese input set up again.) You think the obscure word was used to characterize the old man as being, well, old?

Yeah it's hard to fully explain how katakana is used in normal, non-formal context (because the textbook use of katakana only covers loanwords, I've had people not actually believe me when I explain the other non-standard uses that you'll see really often in informal writing). "Stand out" is the best way I can describe -- it's more literal than meaning for emphasis, so I mean that it lets the word be distinguished from the rest of the sentence (since there's no spaces, or at least in video games the spaces are meant for pauses or clarity).

Anyway, I'll admit the main reason it stuck out as obviously being a regular word and not a name is because of context, and from having played so many other JRPGs in Japanese. That's why I don't want to judge the mistake too harshly -- I can see someone who has less experience translating video games not really think it too odd by that point that a random NPC has a funnily-written name, after dealing with so many place- and people-names that sound like they were made via random letter generation (seriously... ラクラル, ルサン, ノート, ディックス山... I was never too fond of most of the original Japanese placenames).

Alunissage wrote:Also, do you happen to remember the followup, the part that was rendered as "Kakar supports the former high priest Balse. Out of fear for his well-being, I’ve begged him to stop talking about Lord Balse. But he won't be silenced. He wishes to see Lord Balse returned to his rightful place. I fear for the life of the dim-witted bastard." ?

I remember that. At least they were consistent with the error... In the actual dialog, he's just talking about his wife again. There aren't any gender-specific pronouns so it could be mistranslated that way. ...I have no idea why they tossed in "dim-witted bastard" though -- that was added on. (At least, I'm 90% certain. I don't have all the dialog transcribed or spot-translated from that point.)

Temzin wrote:Ah, you beat me to it, I was going to build on WD's second accidental character-creating goof-up to suggest that English lore must now insist that the great Kakar is the descendant of Fulari of Burg.

Dangit, that's a brilliant idea. That's going to be my official answer from now on.

Temzin wrote:Kakaa is a pretty bad mistake to make, even for a novice, and as Kiz noted, there's a big cue in the uncommon (but not impossible) formation of two katakana written vowels in a row. While no one says kakaa anymore, it's more of an affectionate Edo-era thing to call your wife, it still has a strong association with かかあ天下, kakaa-denka, which in English would track pretty closely to man referring to "the wife" or "she who must be obeyed," Rumpole-style. One of my hometowns in the Gunma valley is famous for kakaa-denka and karakkaze, "tough women and strong winds."

Yeah, かかあ天下 was the only thing I had to go on, really, for the meaning (actually I never even heard the word until looking it up to figure this weird bit of dialog out). KF

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Temzin » Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:17 pm

Ah, I come from a lot of places, but the land of kakaa-denka is one of them. (Women are indeed strong there, but I think that the winter winds are far more brutal.) Kiz, you're right about the strangeness of using kakaa in any event: on its own, it's an affectionate and polite Edo-era way to address your dear wife that you'd hear on a TV drama, but no one would use it now---and given the above, you can see how it rolls into "she who must be obeyed" in a comical way, sort of like "yes dear, of course dear!"

I am 120% in favor of Kakar, Descendant of Fulari becoming a new post count status in the future.

Even if WD flubbed this one, they can be largely forgiven based on the fact that they have been vocal about how much they hated the changes in Azado. It's among the weakest of a series of majorly weak changes in the remake. Adding insult to injury, crappy new Azado steals the firebirds from 20 hours into the game's future with Mauri!

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby jay_are » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:14 am

Holy, time completely stopped here for a month :shock:
I became busy in a chain of events... and have been waiting to have a peaceful time to do this. Before I noticed it, a month has passed!
But then I come here, and not a single new post!

Alunissage wrote:Okay, i have a question for you or jay_are: when you first get to the caravan, after Jean's dance intro, are the NPCs the same as in this screenshot?

I can answer that for the JP PlayStation version!
Yes, the musicians and woman in yellow are there at the time of that screenshot. But then morning comes, they're not there anymore. Plantella only attacked Lucia that night, im assuming, because there's no sign of attacks occuring while everyone was asleep.
I think that the devs expect you to think they just "blended in" with the other people that look similar. (The musicians are just the same as the guy on the lower right.)
The woman in yellow is the only one that has no obvious substitute.

As for the JP Saturn version, I can't answer that ;___;
I don't understand why, but my saved file isn't working. *sigh* I don't mind playing again, but it would be a total bummer to play a game just to have save files corrupting on me. Since I cant read Japanese, I don't know what the game is telling me, but it's not working.
Edit: I figured out what was wrong, and am doing another playthrough, done right this time ^__^. Will compare with PS1.
Edit 2: Yes, It is the same exact thing as PS1!

jay_are, there's also a request for you on the EBC tattoo thread.

All right. Just saw it (Fake Althena Stuff). Not sure when I'll get there, but I'll have screenshots if someone doesnt get them before me : P

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Angelalex242 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:22 pm

I'm back guys. I'll jump in to aid where I can :)
Don't blame me, Lucia promised me lots of snuggles and cuddles if I would be her PR guy.

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Shiva Indis » Sun Jan 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Alunissage wrote:Yes, Funato had some very sharp things to say about the EB remake animation. I think it's in one of her sketchbooks, and I know it's in one of the PDFs she released. Shiva Indis used to have that page as her user icon here.

I'm sad to see that I've missed out on this thread all these months but I wanted to add a bit of detail on this four month old post. 8-) The Funato art in question was a fax page she sent to Kubooka, and of the many complaints detailed there, my favorite is a quick sketch of Zophar's first form (the giant one, which was made CG in the remake). Next to the drawing she wrote, "Zophar looks like poop."

This is a really great thread. You all are nitpickers after my own heart. <3 and I think I have a Saturn game that I played as far as Vane on SSF -- maybe I can find some time to add some stuff too.
「まあいいけど。」

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Kizyr » Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:44 pm

Shiva Indis wrote:I'm sad to see that I've missed out on this thread all these months but I wanted to add a bit of detail on this four month old post. 8-) The Funato art in question was a fax page she sent to Kubooka, and of the many complaints detailed there, my favorite is a quick sketch of Zophar's first form (the giant one, which was made CG in the remake). Next to the drawing she wrote, "Zophar looks like poop."

Wait do you know where that sketch is? Is it actually in one of the artbooks (or has someone here sent it to me in the past -- I know Alun sent some that I never got around posting to the site)? KF

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Re: EBC playthrough thread

Postby Alunissage » Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:56 am

It's not in the I+II artbook (of course, because it was about the remake), but it's in one of Funato's own sketchbooks. Possibly Paper Moon, which I'm sure has a real name but I can't think of any better one than that, maybe the light-blue one with Hiro and Ruby sketched on the cover (I think that one was folded into the second, longer printing of Paper Moon). My stuff is temporarily packed away while we rearrange shelves so I can't check it directly. I know it's in the PDF, but I'm pretty sure that's protected so the only way I could extract it is a screenshot. (I do suggest buying the PDF, if it's still available; she has comments on some of the pages which of course I can't read, and can't copy/paste either.)


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