A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

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Jenner
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A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Jenner » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:07 am

Nall mentions, when he gives you the White Dragon Wings in EB and in EBC that a lot of the power has faded over the centuries (It will no longer teleport you all over the place) it's never explained WHY the magic is fading but now that I think about it could it be because [spoiler]The Goddess is dead?[/spoiler]

It's obvious magic is fading, when it's being said by Nall itself. When Neovane falls it's because the Black Dragon's power has weakened. Will magic fade in Lunar until the point that it ceases to exist?
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby MaroonChan » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:10 am

That's a good point. I'd say its possible that could happen. In fact that gives me some ideas for stories. :lol: Yay!
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Jenner » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:20 am

Indeed, and now that I'm musing:

I believe at one point in the game Nall states that Alex was the last Dragonmaster and that their can be no new/other Dragonmasters (I'll look for a screenshot, can someone verify?) I assume this is because of the fading magic/power of the dragons. Perhaps it was because they were sealed away by Ghaleon but even after you release them you cannot/do not become Dragonmaster so I'm beginning to believe it's because magic is fading. Goddess is dead and without a goddess to protect the Dragons have no purpose. Magical creatures that they are when all magic fades from Lunar, as it seems it inevitably will, will not the dragons die?

The blue dragon mentions the age of humanity is coming, doesn't He?
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Angelalex242 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:39 pm

I don't think so...

First of all, only one goddess of two is dead. The other goddess is alive and well.

Second of all, when the alive goddess claimed all of Lunar's magic to fight Zophar, the whole world was reduced to 0 MP. At that time, people were reliant on the power of Althena to cast spells. However, Hiro and co. proved you could cast spells without Althena's power. In fact, that you could still have enough magic to take down Zophar, even with the Goddess's power out of the picture.

Also, the Blue Dragon doesn't mention the age of humanity. I wrote down everything he and the Black Dragon ever said. Mostly, they talk about the Star Dragon in the epilogue.

Lastly, so long as Lucia exists, the Dragons won't pop out of existence anytime soon. They get enough power from her to keep on living. As for no Dragonmasters and the wings losing magic...well, for 1000 years, Lucia was in a Crystal, and the 'backup generator' for divine power was rather far removed. Recall that Lucia's pendant does what the Wings USED to do in the past.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Jenner » Fri Aug 08, 2008 6:29 pm

Angelalex242 wrote:I don't think so...

First of all, only one goddess of two is dead. The other goddess is alive and well.

Second of all, when the alive goddess claimed all of Lunar's magic to fight Zophar, the whole world was reduced to 0 MP. At that time, people were reliant on the power of Althena to cast spells. However, Hiro and co. proved you could cast spells without Althena's power. In fact, that you could still have enough magic to take down Zophar, even with the Goddess's power out of the picture.

Also, the Blue Dragon doesn't mention the age of humanity. I wrote down everything he and the Black Dragon ever said. Mostly, they talk about the Star Dragon in the epilogue.

Lastly, so long as Lucia exists, the Dragons won't pop out of existence anytime soon. They get enough power from her to keep on living. As for no Dragonmasters and the wings losing magic...well, for 1000 years, Lucia was in a Crystal, and the 'backup generator' for divine power was rather far removed. Recall that Lucia's pendant does what the Wings USED to do in the past.


I am still of the astute belief that Lucia is NOT a Goddess, REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE MANGA SAYS, Quark never mentions two Goddesses! Nall never mentions two goddesses! Both Ghaleon and Zophar call her princess! EVEN the Pixies/Fairies say she's a princess of the blue star.

Where is it that makes you think that using Althena's power reduced the world to zero MP? In LUnar: The Silver Star Complete the Zero MP at the end? That doesn't mean THE WHOLE WORLD WAS WTF PWNED. As a fan I can't completely disregard the the wretched alterations in, like, the 800th remake of the games. But I still prefer the TSS version. Laike didn't die, but yes, he had to give up and sacrifice HIS magical ability and himself as Dragonmaster to save Althena. To seal away the Black Dragon who, I presume, went mad because she was in the Frontier away from Althena's Light. In SSC Alex and Co had to sacrifice their goods to WTF PWN the Magic Emperor, I don't think all magic was gone!

But it's definitely fading now. Does Lucia's pendant o the White Wings thing in EB? Or only in EBC?
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Alunissage » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:48 pm

I don't remember Lucia's pendant having any special use in the SegaCD game, but it's been quite a while since I played the epilogue.

However, I never attributed storyline significance to Nall's saying that the white dragon wings had lost power over the years and would only get you out of dungeons. That's just an attempt to give an in-game explanation for why the developers didn't want you able to teleport wherever you want at that stage of the game. After all, the disabling of the Destiny near Zaback would be meaningless if they could just warp out of there... and, come to think of it, they wouldn't have any way to get back with their ship stuck there.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Jenner » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:37 am

Alunissage wrote:I don't remember Lucia's pendant having any special use in the SegaCD game, but it's been quite a while since I played the epilogue.

However, I never attributed storyline significance to Nall's saying that the white dragon wings had lost power over the years and would only get you out of dungeons. That's just an attempt to give an in-game explanation for why the developers didn't want you able to teleport wherever you want at that stage of the game. After all, the disabling of the Destiny near Zaback would be meaningless if they could just warp out of there... and, come to think of it, they wouldn't have any way to get back with their ship stuck there.


Perhaps a designer excuse, but still, it was stated. There's no proof it was an excuse. I want to assume it's a canon issue.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Alunissage » Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:11 pm

I don't think Nall gave a time period over which the wings had been losing power, did he? I'd connect it with the dragon aura being gone, in that case.

By the way, Alex and Luna having 0 MP at the end of SSSC was a WD change. They have full MP in the Japanese versions.

(Also by the way, Kiz, your page of SSS E-J differences says in the intro that you have them grouped in eight sections, and then immediately lists the seven categories.)

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Jenner » Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:31 pm

Alunissage wrote:(Also by the way, Kiz, your page of SSS E-J differences says in the intro that you have them grouped in eight sections, and then immediately lists the seven categories.)



Nall just said it's power is fading, I believe.
Maybe he said over time? I think you're right though, in that he doesn't mention a specific time. HOWEVER, if the WDW's were sucking because his essence had been sealed away, then when you get his essence back from Leo the WDW should have started working like they used to and they didn't.

Also, you must be reading it wrong. Kizyr never makes mistakes, he is perfect and without fault :P
Last edited by Jenner on Sun Aug 17, 2008 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Blue_Sycro » Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:10 pm

I don't recall his specific wording, but I thought he just meant the magic within the Wings had faded over time, not necessarily all the magic everywhere.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Sonic# » Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:33 pm

I've somewhat thought the same way you have, Jenner, but there are important differences.

For me, dying is not a good way to describe it, but rather... rebalancing? Dispersing? Reconcentrating?

The idea I'm trying to get at is this: with Althena's death, magical power has been given back to the land of Lunar as a whole. Rather than it being a constant state perpetuated by the goddess, it becomes a variable, something to be maintained or dispersed, manipulated or kept based on the people that use it. The dragons and certain artifacts still have some power, but that power is considerably less concentrated, and it takes a great threat like Zophar to reactivate it within themselves. Otherwise magic remains, but in a changed and changing state.

Thinking about it that way, it strikes me how the entire environment of Lunar is tied to magic. When the magic is withdrawn, the land is reduced to a wasteland. And sometimes it is thrown into disarray, as with the snowstorms in EBC. Between SSSC and EBC, the world map has changed dramatically. But it hasn't disappeared.

And so, to Jenner's original post, one could say that the old magic is dying, but new magic is still there, but I prefer to think of it as a continuity, a renewal, rather than a death, and that would fit in better with the cycles of rebirth seen in the games.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Alunissage » Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:06 pm

I'd think something similar... some finite amount of magic that has been redistributed. This may fit better with the SegaCD games than the remakes in some ways. Points to consider:

* In TSS there's a Goddess and dragons, and the city of Vane is afloat. I would suggest that all of these represented some concentration of magic, including Vane -- didn't Kizyr find something about the Star Chamber being a place to control Vane's considerable magic, thus why it was important for Xenobia to get to it? Vane was the first target of the Grindery, because it was a threat to Ghaleon's ambitions, as were the dragons. Also, of course, the Dragonmaster would be a concentration of magic, another reason to eliminate the dragons. (However, the dragons appear to re-coalesce out of magic at need, so it was probably more getting them out of the way temporarily.)

* In TSS relatively few people can use magic. Ramus is probably the rule, rather than the exception. It's necessary for the Black Rose St. person to draw out Alex's; it doesn't just show up. (Note that Kyle, Laike, and Tempest have skills, rather than magic, and Luna has songs. The others have actual magic.) Note that the Grindery is specifically steam-powered rather than magical. There's also no kid in Burg trying out spells in this game, although the Lyton elder is a magician.

* Also in TSS, there are no healing statues of Althena. Rather there are HP-restoring rocks and, less frequently, MP-restoring stone circles. There are little shrines of Althena here and there too. My point here is that it's a person, a priestess, healing you rather than a statue, as in SSSC. In fact, the only way to have both HP and MP restored is to have a priestess "use the power of Althena" to restore you, or a few other people here and there.

* In EB, magic use seems to be more common, despite Neo-Vane's snobbery. Hiro has elemental magic, with no indication where it came from and no training in it. Gwyn has healing magic but is not a priest. Leo has earth magic, which doesn't seem to relate to his white knighthood (IMO). However, as other people have noted, the Wind and Earth spells suck... that is, they're just not very powerful at all, while Lemina's are pretty beefy. So while these may be inborn, they're not as strong.

* In EB, unlike TSS, there are healing statues all over the place. That is, concentrations of magic that will heal fully, rather than priests doing it. However, there apparently isn't enough magic to make Vane float. (Neo-Vane might be a rough measure of this; if it takes a dragon aura to make it float, then probably it takes something similar for the original Vane.)

* In EB, all of Lunar is acting as a storage battery, gathering power for the eventual revival of the Blue Star. This could be where a significant chunk of Althena's power went when it was released for general use.

* In EB, of course, there is a clique of priests and leaders working toward Zophar's revival. While probably most of their magic came from the stolen dragon auras, they may have diminished some of the general magic available as well. The energy to revive Ghaleon and keep him alive must've come from somewhere. The impostor Althena probably has some too, to maintain the pretense.

I may have had a more coherent point in here. but I have to get back to work. Maybe someone else can go in this direction.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Angelalex242 » Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:12 pm

No comment on the TSS/EB stuff. I've never played the sega versions, and this IS an EBC thread.

Still, I believe I can support the theory neither Dragons nor Magic are going anywhere in Lunar's future in EBC, at least.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Loud Mouth » Sat Aug 16, 2008 9:39 pm

I always thought of the Dragon wings as an amulet that held a charge of magic, infused by the white dragon, but holding no inherent magic of its own.

What I mean is, that it's just an ordinary trinket that the was given magical abilities by somebody (probably Althena) so that the holder could get around the world easily (Possible because it's a pain to have the Dragons leaving their post every time the Dragon Master wants to make rounds)

If this was the case, it'd only be natural for the magic held within the trinket to dissipate after so long. Like an unused battery will eventually loose its charge even when it's not in use *Glances as his PSP* And if it was Althena who made them in the first place, Nall might not have the knowledge or the power to recharge it, and if Lucia's Pendent serves the same purpose as they use to, there'd be no reason for her to charge it again.

Yes, I know, but they're called "The White Dragon Wings"

Things are often named by what they look like, or who uses them. Ghaleon's sword isn't named so because he made it. Nor is the Dragon Master Armour named so because the Dragon master made it. So, why name them the White dragon wings?

Going off the art in the EBC booklet, (which also states "These wings have lost some of their power over the years, but they can still transport characters out of dungeons.")

It's a pair of white, leathery wings attached to a blue jewel set in a clawed staff that appears to be made of bone.

As for the dragon part? Everything the Dragon Master owns, aside from his sword, has Dragon in it.

...I had more... but I forgot what it was when I went to look up the picture.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby White Shadow » Fri Aug 22, 2008 4:07 pm

Jenner wrote:It's obvious magic is fading, when it's being said by Nall itself. When Neovane falls it's because the Black Dragon's power has weakened. Will magic fade in Lunar until the point that it ceases to exist?


Is this an J-E difference? I haven't played the Japanese versions of either EB or the remake, but I don't recall anything about Neo-Vane falling due to the power of the Black Dragon faltering. As far as I remember, the reason Neo-Vane fell was because Borgan was sustaining its flight with the Black Dragon's power. When Hiro and Lucia removed the Dragon Aura from his possession, he could no longer sustain its flight, and thus Neo-Vane began to fall like a brick.

I wonder what would have happened to Borgan and Neo-Vane had they not defeated him. Would Neo-Vane have been part of Zophar's new world?


Jenner wrote:I believe at one point in the game Nall states that Alex was the last Dragonmaster and that their can be no new/other Dragonmasters (I'll look for a screenshot, can someone verify?) I assume this is because of the fading magic/power of the dragons.


I always interpreted this as there are people who came after Alex who could have been Dragonmaster but chose not to since they could never live up to Alex's legacy as the savior of the world.

At least in the English version of EB, Ruby tells Hiro that he could be a Dragonmaster if he wanted to.


Alunissage wrote:After all, the disabling of the Destiny near Zaback would be meaningless if they could just warp out of there... and, come to think of it, they wouldn't have any way to get back with their ship stuck there.


At least in the EBC epilogue, you can use Lucia's Pendant to teleport to the Destiny. At least in theory, you could use the White Dragon Wings to teleport to the Destiny's top deck as well.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Alunissage » Fri Aug 22, 2008 8:04 pm

In Kei Shigema's "30 Questions about Lunar" he says that after Alex died, Nall travelled the world, always keeping Althena's Sword with him, but never found anyone worthy to give it to. That alone would prevent any new Dragonmasters, regardless of how much magic was in the world.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby White Shadow » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:13 am

Alunissage wrote:In Kei Shigema's "30 Questions about Lunar" he says that after Alex died, Nall travelled the world, always keeping Althena's Sword with him, but never found anyone worthy to give it to. That alone would prevent any new Dragonmasters, regardless of how much magic was in the world.


Wasn't Alex the Dragonmaster before he got the Sword, though? The Sword is traditionally wielded by the Dragonmaster, but is the Dragonmaster required to carry it?

It is stated in the Lunar novels and alluded to in a few of the games that there have been Dragonmasters in the past that didn't even use swords, some fighting completely with magic or others with other sorts of weapons (e.g. their fists).

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Sonic# » Sat Aug 23, 2008 2:48 am

That is true. The requisite equipment would seem to be the armor for becoming a Dragonmaster. Althena's Sword may have been the standard weapon for a Dragonmaster, but ... there were at least exceptions to the rule.

I could see, though, how Nall would be reluctant to give permission to any potential seeker. Also, the dragons were killed and would take time to rejuvenate themselves, so there would be a period afterward when becoming a Dragonmaster would be impossible. Perhaps after that time, people lost interest or didn't feel the need for a Dragonmaster, the times being relatively peaceful and prosperous without the Vile Tribe or other outside tensions.
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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Alunissage » Sat Aug 23, 2008 3:44 am

I don't think that SSS-only scene of Alex becoming a dragonmaster without the Sword is indicative of not needing the sword. Remember, it didn't work; he still needed the Sword to get the job done. In TSS, of course, there's no such scene; Alex only becomes dragonmaster when Nall bestows the sword on him in the Goddess Tower.

Although there are allusions to dragonmasters not using the sword, this doesn't necessarily mean that something similar wasn't involved. A fistfighter may well have had the Gauntlets of Althena. I suspect that all conferrals of dragonmasterhood would require a token from or representing Althena as well as the dragons; note that in both TSS and EB there were spells associated with gaining that fifth item. I think the only reason SSS and Legend didn't have this is because they're stingy with spells in general.

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Re: A thought: Magic slowly dying in Lunar?

Postby Lord Yggdrasill » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:23 am

This sounds somewhat interesting, and I see a potential sequel can be made regarding the concept of magic is dying. 500 years after the events of Lunar 2, a new villain is trying to collect magic from the world of Lunar and attempting to restore the world back to the era when magic flourishes.


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