Who's the prettiest of all Althenas?

[Blue_Goddess]

I'd rank the choices as follows: Althena, Luna, and then Dark Althena.

I don't like the look of Althena as she appeared in the SSSC and prefered her look in EBC. She looked too young, I think. Luna ranks higher than Dark Althena only because the Dark Goddess costume was rather ridicious. No self-respecting goddess would wear such clothing. But I prefer women with long flowing hair, and if it was based on that factor alone, Luna would come in dead last.

i respect your decision about Dark Althena, But Ghaleon controlled her right? maybe it was Ghaleon who chose the clothings for her... who knows? After all... she WAS controlled by him.

[Kizyr]

i respect your decision about Dark Althena, But Ghaleon controlled her right? maybe it was Ghaleon who chose the clothings for her... who knows? After all... she WAS controlled by him.

If I were controlling Luna/Althena, I wouldn't've had it any other way. KF

[Angelalex242]

Ditto. Turn to the Dark Side of the Force!

[phyco126]

Psh, come on Kiz, we all know she wouldn't have a string of fiber anywhere on her body if it where you controlling her.

[Anordin]

I guess what irks me is that all sterotypical evil women have to be wearing next to nothing as part of their 'evilness.' (The three vile tribe women?) And being good or evil has nothing to do with what you're wearing, but what you do.

Well I suppose if I were Ghaleon and was controlling Luna/Althena, I'd probably make her wear that silly get-up too, but only on the basis of degrading the Goddess for everyone to see.

But then again, why did Zophar dress the False Althena in relatively respectable clothing? Was it simply because she pledged her life to his cause and thus didn't feel the need to degrade her, and she was paraded around a number of zombie-like Chosen, who really couldn't care what Althena looked like?

In all honesty, its just the fact that the body part of the Dark Althena costume doesn't look like it should stay on that bothers me. The cape, hat, gloves, and boots are more than fine. Everything in the center though...

[Alunissage]

I love capes and gloves. The latter is probably part of why I like Phacia.

But yes, there's the subtext that fully concealing clothing = good and more skin than fabric = evil. Mia and Jessica are both almost completely covered up, and Luna only slightly less so. Phacia and Royce have enveloping garb until they're unmasked (and Phacia's clothing covers considerably more than Royce's or Xenobia's), and of course Lemia was in an elaborate dress. Goddess Althena had bare arms but was otherwise covered up (cf. her appearance in Dragon Song). Likewise, the Fake Althena was supposed to be good and holy, and her huge gown was a visual symbol of that. Barua, in Magic School, is also wearing very little. Jean is an exception, but basically it holds. And yes, it irks me too. It bothers me in general that evil is considered cool and attractive. Though as I commented a bit before, sex appeal is also a kind of power, and surely those who are evil and power-hungry wouldn't mind having that particular power as well.

[Anordin]

That's an interesting point you bring up: sex appeal as power which does make sense. I suppose if I were a power-hungry evil young woman I'd probably wear alot less than what was deemed socially acceptable. But if I was also a *cunning* power-hungry evil young woman, I wouldn't so much flaunt sex appeal to everyone but be more inclined to seduce those in positions of power. I wouldn't want everyone young male to be pawing at me, but only those who could give me what I wanted. Probably moving off topic but has there been an purely evil woman villian as the antagonist? Not just one where she serves someone else but was the one who had designed an overly elaborate plan for world domination?

And I don't see Jean too much as an exception to this as much of her dress still is covering, and her fans can be used to cover and reveal what she chooses. And when she puts on her karate uniform, she's as covered as everyone else.

This reminds me of some commentary from the Bride of Frankenstein where they would not make a hideously ugly evil female monster but instead made the Bride relatively pretty. And one of the points was that 'even though Mary Shelly was a striking young woman, she too could think of terrifying monsters...' Great classic movie, btw.

Edit: More off topic. Then again, Lucia does come to us completely naked in several scenes, especially when we first encounter her. Then she's decked out in that large red cape, hiding her black uniform. I'm not sure what to make of that; just putting it out there.

[Mychael216]

Most appealing...? I'd have to go with....

OLD LUNA FROM EBC!!!

Just kidding. I'd probably go with Luna. I mean, she definately has this whole individual thing going on about her.

On the whole sex appeal for power thing, I'd definately use it to my advantage. If you've been blessed in that way... I mean, Kyle would definately be stupified. Anyone else she could just sing into oblivion!

[Sonic#]

Probably moving off topic but has there been an purely evil woman villian as the antagonist? Not just one where she serves someone else but was the one who had designed an overly elaborate plan for world domination?

Kingdom Hearts has what you might consider a purely evil woman villain, Malificent. You could also consider Mother Brain or Neifirst from Phantasy Star 2. Or Queen Zeal or Lavos, if you want to attach genders to parasitic aliens.

I'm reluctant to call anything pure evil though. Driven by different motives, yes. Bad motives, yes. But... even Ghaleon has a softer side (fairies!).

Your observations on sex appeal (and Alunissage's) are interesting. It is a tool to be used or not used, like any other quality, including family connections, stature in the world, personal ability, knowledge, coercion, and so on. Both females and males can use it too. An interesting use of the latter is in Shadows of the Empire (a Star Wars novel), with Prince Xizor as a species that uses a cocktail of natural pheromones to try to seduce Princess Leia. Chewie saves the day though.

But I think the point of the use of scantily-cladiness in Lunar is not the intention of the character, but rather of the storyteller. As a tool of power, it wasn't used much, except perhaps on Kyle. Otherwise, it was stylistic. Alunissage doesn't agree with that. I don't either. But... as it's used, it works. Even Jean can be said to be dressed 'tastefully'.

[Mychael216]

Probably moving off topic but has there been an purely evil woman villian as the antagonist? Not just one where she serves someone else but was the one who had designed an overly elaborate plan for world domination?

Kingdom Hearts has what you might consider a purely evil woman villain. You could also consider Mother Brain or Neifirst from Phantasy Star 2.

She was purely evil, but she wasn't the mastermind...

As to the orginal question, FFVIII had a purely evil antagonist without anyone telling her what to do.

[Alunissage]

Then again, Lucia does come to us completely naked in several scenes, especially when we first encounter her. Then she's decked out in that large red cape, hiding her black uniform. I'm not sure what to make of that; just putting it out there.

Yeah, I thought about mentioning that. I don't know anything about anime conventions, but I think in general the complete nakedness connotes innocence, rather than the reverse, perhaps because it's more childlike. There's no need to conceal sexual characteristics because the character isn't sexual. Lucia was basically a sexless child; she was completely unselfconscious at the outset and in the spring in EBC. She was fully enveloped in a double layer of clothing when in uniform. When she changes her outfit, it signifies her becoming more human, of course, but also perhaps a little more grown up, with the off-shoulder blouse (which even the designers figured was held up by magic, since there's not enough on her chest to do it). In the later spring scene, or the bathing pool in Taben's Peak in EB, she's become self-conscious and it's no longer "okay" to be seen naked, because now she's seen as a woman instead of a child.

Luna makes the point, too. At the end of TSS, she falls (where to? the layout of that scene is pretty illogical) and there's a flash of nudity before the final tableau, in which Alex is holding her and a piece of fabric has materialized to cover her up a bit. Both of these indicate the change to Luna from Dark Althena. In SSSC, Luna gets stuck in the outfit for a bit (and looks very unhappy), then when she and Alex return she's completely enveloped in a sheet, probably her cape. (Then she hugs Jess and Mia, and we only see that from the back...I suspect she's not actually wearing anything else under the cape, but of course that's not indicated one way or the other.)

[Anordin]

Its interesting to note how nakedness in one form or another takes on certain characteristics. While I agree with most of your comments about Lucia, and perhaps I'm stretching this a bit, but couldn't (shouldn't ?) we interpret her nakedness as a sign of 'evilness' as well? She is literally not exactly from this world and before she appears she's rumored to be the destroyer. Of course the game goes on and we learn that she's good and incredibly naive while there is an evil god out there. But when she absorbs Althena's powers and everyone's else, doesn't she become the most dangerous who, had not a bunch of heroes accompanied her, would have destroyed the Silver Star to defeat Zophar? Perhaps I'm reading alot into this, because I'm inclined to believe that Lucia's nakedness is still a *very* subtle sign that there is something distrustful about her. Not that all this doesn't make for a very complex character...which is probably why the FMV fight between Lucia and Zophar is very powerful event.

Okay I've moved this so far off-topic it isn't funny. But I guess the question that needs to be answered is this: when is nakedness/sex appeal considered a virtue and when is it a vice? Afterall, in a very special occasion, it is permitted that two people can be freely naked in each other's presence. Is it truly in the mind of the person or is it something everyone can collectively agree upon? Why is it that certain clothing is deemed acceptable, while others are pushing that unseen boundary?

To bring the above back somewhat to the Lunar world: Would it be considered appropriate for Lucia to return to her naked state now that she has experienced the known world? Afterall she does return to that crystal exactly as she came out of it. Would she be permitted to return and commit those same innocence acts having already learned them or would we chastise her for 'not knowing better'? And because I can't get the Garden of Eden myth out of my mind, is knowledge of the world worth it as really nothing changed except how you percieve the world?

To those of you who mentioned female villians I thank you. Too bad I haven't played many of those games. (I HATED FFVIII...). I should start a new thread for discussing some ideas I thought of while I was playing these games that would be along the lines of this philosophic musings...

[Althena's_Courtier]

I really and trul;y prefer the Dark Goddess; she fits my style.

As for the most attractive...I'd say..Althena when Alex enters the Holy Chamber.

[Angelalex242]

I understand your reasoning completely. I really do.

[Alunissage]

Its interesting to note how nakedness in one form or another takes on certain characteristics. While I agree with most of your comments about Lucia, and perhaps I'm stretching this a bit, but couldn't (shouldn't ?) we interpret her nakedness as a sign of 'evilness' as well? She is literally not exactly from this world and before she appears she's rumored to be the destroyer. Of course the game goes on and we learn that she's good and incredibly naive while there is an evil god out there. But when she absorbs Althena's powers and everyone's else, doesn't she become the most dangerous who, had not a bunch of heroes accompanied her, would have destroyed the Silver Star to defeat Zophar? Perhaps I'm reading alot into this, because I'm inclined to believe that Lucia's nakedness is still a *very* subtle sign that there is something distrustful about her. Not that all this doesn't make for a very complex character...which is probably why the FMV fight between Lucia and Zophar is very powerful event.

I don't think I can agree. In this context I think it has to be considered symbolic of innocence and unworldliness if it's symbolic of anything -- nothing to hide, you see. It's not like it's Il Bacio. Besides which, she's totally sexless there, looking about twelve. Keep in mind that her "goodness" was established from the start...I don't know/recall if you've played EB, but her nightmare in the opening of that game is of clawed, evil hands tearing into Lunar and blood going everywhere, and (in both, I'm sure) she's alarmed and worried about Lunar after she realizes she's not supposed to be awake yet and therefore it was something else that disturbed her. It's fairly clear to the player whose side she's on. Which makes her stupidity in handing the keys to the world to Zophar all the more striking.

Nakedness => innocence when there's no sexuality in it. No provocative pose, no knowingness, etc.
Sex appeal (a totally separate thing) => evil when it's knowing, so to speak, but generally is more to reinforce the character's known evilness rather than to indicate it. Xenobia's and Jean's outfits cover similar areas, but Jean is almost sexless herself (I've generally thought the Blue Dragon/Shadow Dragon cult must've also involved sexual abuse), while Xenobia is smirking and clearly confident and aware of the impact she's making.

The analogy does perhaps break down with the end of the game and Lucia reset back to being in her crystal. Although...she doesn't scream in terror at Hiro finding her there, as she does when he sees her bathing; however, when they're outside after that she's swathed in his cape. Granted, it's probably still cold (though she only slightly shivered in the snowstorm), but she doesn't return to her casual outfit, which would have been reasonable enough in the context, or her uniform, which would have been warmer.

Actually, that raises a whole different question -- was Hiro's presence all it took to make the snowstorms stop? If she's wrapped in the cape it suggests that that's right after he gets there. I forget if we can see if it's still snowing madly before he gets there.

(By the way, it can be offensive to refer to someone else's religious belief as a "myth".)

Back to the clothing thing, it doesn't always hold up -- a lot of it's in the demeanor of the person, as I was suggesting with regards to Jean. A true story: at a party in college a girl who was rather drunk said something like this to me: "I'd never get away with dressing like you do. If I were wearing that it'd look really bad, because I'm a slut. But you're not a slut, so you can wear it." It was a bit weird, but I couldn't disagree with her analysis.

[GhaleonOne]

(By the way, it can be offensive to refer to someone else's religious belief as a "myth".)

Actually, I don't find that to be offensive at all. Even my religion and ministry professors in college referred to many of these things as myths, but that doesn't make them untrue. A myth is simply a style of story. They don't have to neccessarily be untrue to be called a myth.

Definition:
A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society.

I would consider the creation and flood stories to be myths. It doesn't make them any less true.

[Alunissage]

Well, I did say can be rather than is. I just think most people will have the connotation of myth = not real; we mostly hear it in the context of Greek or Roman mythology, or in the context of a very unlikely belief, akin to urban legend -- the latter could be true, but probably isn't. (With a subtext of how gullible people are for believing such-and-such). I imagine in academia it's used more precisely; I'm just talking about general usage.

[phyco126]

Heh, yeah. Generally speaking Myth is considered not real. I.E. "I heard that somebody got bit by snakes hiding in a fur coat at such and such store." "No, that's a myth. It never happened."

And as for the Garden of Eden, nakedness isn't evil. Remember, Adam and Eve where naked and it wasn't until they ate the forbidden fruit that they became ashamed of their nakedness.

Still, it strikes me odd how so many people are fine with killing and gorey things, but as soon as sex or a little bit of flesh is involved, then it's instant doom to society.

[Alunissage]

It puzzles me too. Violence should be just as wrong.

[phyco126]

Well, in some ways people view violence as wrong. However, they seem to accept it as part of society. Yet sex, although way more apart of society than violence, seems to be the "greater" evil.

Like GTA3. Sure, rockstar became part of a 300 million dollar lawsuit because the parents of a couple of teens who shot at cars on the interstate blamed the game for doing this to their "oh so innocent" children (god, if that's the case, I'll be more than happy to go to jail for 20 years and come out 300 million richer.)

However, it really hit the fan with the whole secret coffe shop became known. Suddenly, lawsuits left and right hit the courts. That baffles me.

Same thing with horror movies. No matter how gruesom and disgusting it is, it is ONLY rated R. Yet if the movie has a wee bit of sex in it. Boom, next rating up.