The Twin Dragonmasters

[phyco126]

I remember reading on the the books in Vane's libary that talked about some of the past Dragonmasters. In it, it mentioned twin Dragonmasters. So, here we go. How can there be two Dragonmasters at once? If that was the case, then why wasn't any of the Four Hero's (aside from Dyne), or even the Five Hero's (aside from Alex) a Dragonmaster?

[Alunissage]

Didn't we talk about this as an aside in another thread? Too tired to look it up, but I know it was discussed here recently, with several theories of implementation suggested.

[Kizyr]

There are other ways, I'm sure. But the characteristics of a Dragonmaster would be very specific. In TSS, anyone besides Alex really wouldn't be Dragonmaster material. Kyle had zero magic potential and was a bit too hasty in his decisions. Nash was too arrogant (though he improved) and had zero strength. Jessica was more of a cleric, so although she could fight, her main strength was in healing. And Mia, well, no physical strength despite her immense magic powers.

The Dragonmaster is usually a paladin-type character. Someone has to be strong and have some magic ability to attain the title. Plus, their character has to be such that they'd be willing and able to protect the Goddess through all circumstances. So, that limits it to only a select few. And I'd think that once there's a Dragonmaster already around, the incentive for someone else becoming one diminishes. KF

[Alunissage]

I don't know that I can agree with the analysis of the TSS cast. Both Jessica and Nash were decent fighters -- there's a point in the game where Nash is actually a stronger fighter than Alex at the same level with the best equipment they have at the time, or at least that was the case with the last game I played. Of course, you get something good (Dyne's Sword?) shortly thereafter so Alex gets ahead. Jessica was a fine fighter as well, and were she allowed by stupid sexist videogame laws to equip swords I doubt she'd have trouble. Her weakness is that she had no attack magic, but the dragon magic would have compensated in most cases. Both Nash and Jessica were weakened in SSSC considerably; they were pretty useful in TSS. Nash's character also greatly improves in TSS over time, much more so than in SSSC. In the absence of Alex either might have done in a pinch. Alex got it as much because Luna ended up growing up with him as anything else....well, that and the prophecy, but for all we know Laike could've propagated that after seeing Alex when he left Luna with Noah.

[phyco126]

That makes sense, why else would Laike leave a "Cat that grew wings" eh?

[Kizyr]

I don't know that I can agree with the analysis of the TSS cast. Both Jessica and Nash were decent fighters -- there's a point in the game where Nash is actually a stronger fighter than Alex at the same level with the best equipment they have at the time, or at least that was the case with the last game I played. Of course, you get something good (Dyne's Sword?) shortly thereafter so Alex gets ahead. Jessica was a fine fighter as well, and were she allowed by stupid sexist videogame laws to equip swords I doubt she'd have trouble. Her weakness is that she had no attack magic, but the dragon magic would have compensated in most cases. Both Nash and Jessica were weakened in SSSC considerably; they were pretty useful in TSS. Nash's character also greatly improves in TSS over time, much more so than in SSSC. In the absence of Alex either might have done in a pinch. Alex got it as much because Luna ended up growing up with him as anything else....well, that and the prophecy, but for all we know Laike could've propagated that after seeing Alex when he left Luna with Noah.

With Jessica, the reason she didn't equip a sword was because she was closer to a cleric class--clerics more often use bludgeoning weapons like maces, flails, hammers, etc. (Ronfar was the same in EB). Had nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

Numerically, Nash might have been a better fighter for some parts of the game. But his forte isn't direct fighting, it's magic; he was designed as a physically weak character with high magical abilities. KF

[Rune Lai]

Had nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

But everything to do with class stereotypes. Really, there's no reason a Jessica couldn't have put as much effort to learning a sword as a mace if she really wanted to. It probably would've taken more training, since swords are more complicated weapons, but if she really, really, wanted to, she should have been able to.

I like Disgaea's method of weapon proficiency. The more the character uses it, the better they get, so any class and equip any weapon, but there are certain weapons each class is pre-disposed towards using. So clerics can use clerics and learn sword techniques, but they take much longer to advance in them than warrior-types.

Most games don't use that method though.

[Ruby]

With Jessica, the reason she didn't equip a sword was because she was closer to a cleric class--clerics more often use bludgeoning weapons like maces, flails, hammers, etc. (Ronfar was the same in EB). Had nothing to do with gender stereotypes.

But um.. in the original Lunar TSS.. didn't Jess use a claw? It wasn't till SSS that she used a mace.

[Kizyr]

But um.. in the original Lunar TSS.. didn't Jess use a claw? It wasn't till SSS that she used a mace.

She didn't only use claws. There were flail weapons as well. I can't recall if there were any maces, though. KF

[segaboy7]

Then again, you said Kyle was weak in magic skills, but Kyle and Alex have the exact same magic spells. They both use heavy sword attacks for magic attacks. In SSSC the only time alex gets real spells is when he becomes a dragonmaster. The only version this is questionable is in the original cus alex used fire spells and could eventually get a heal spell. So really I think the only think counting Kyle out is hit attitude.

[Alunissage]

He was referring specifically to TSS, as the rest of us have been since that post.

Which reminds me, Kizyr, you say that "the Dragonmaster is usually a paladin-type", but we only have one data point so it's far premature to say "usually". When there have been seven or eight Dragonmasters you can start generalizing. No particular reason to think that some other Dragonmaster might've been more of an attack magic person or even a healer if that's what the times required; just because the sword is an accoutrement doesn't mean that that's the principal role of a dragonmaster. I still disagree that Jess and Nash would be disqualified solely by not being sword-swingers, especially if that limitation is solely because of some traditional concept of classes that needn't apply to a given instance. Remember, there's a piece of TSS artwork showing Nash with a sword.

[phyco126]

Jess uses a claw in L:L as well.

I would consider Alex as a paladin-type anyway. The only magic skills he had where the Dragon Magic, and those don't count because they where associated with his armor. Remember, despite his sword attacks being a technical magic spell because of the use of MP, they specifically mentioned that he had no magic ability, only the use of a sword.

Then there is Dyne, who not only was strong to hit stuff normally, but he had some super evil spells himself.

What about Ghaleon then? He had super powerfull normal attacks, as well as super powerful (as in, extremely powerful) spells.

Then there was the one Dragonmaster who used his fists. He could have had magic, but the book didn't say.

[GhaleonOne]

I see no reason why a Ghaleon-like character could not be the Dragonmaster. In fact, he was the fake Dragonmaster in EBC. I also beleive more light will be shed on this topic once Dragon Song is out.

[Alunissage]

One of the NPCs in TSS or SSSC comments that Dyne and Ghaleon had a contest to see who would become Dragonmaster and Ghaleon lost by a narrow margin.

And Phyco, I don't know whether you meant to only refer to Alex in SSSC or not in terms of calling him a paladin, because TSS Alex didn't have any sword skills -- a clear distinction is drawn between hiim as magic-user and Laike, with sword skills like Kyle's but no 'magic' because he lost it all confining the Black Dragon. The Dragonmaster is clearly expected to be a magic user in that game.

I'm pretty sure the only reason he was made to only have sword skills in SSSC is because of the highly categorized magic of EB, which had sword and fighting skills that acted like magic but weren't considered magic (as in why Jean couldn't get into Neo-Vane). SSSC adopted that categorization, with Mia getting exactly the magic Lemina had, and in the process restricted the magic by only allowing eight spells/skills at most to each character - the fewest in any Lunar game. There was no room to give Alex both the sword spells parallel to Hiro's and elemental attack magic because of the dragon spells, and even one of those (Holy Light/Althena's Light) was removed.

[phyco126]

I was indeed only refering to the SSSC Alex. Sooner or later I will get a chance to play TSS!

Also, for that qoute of the NPC, it probably came from TSS as I have no recollition of it in SSSC, and I'm pretty sure I would remember something that important.

Also, if that is true, why wasn't Ghaleon a Dragonmaster at the same time as Dyne? Goes back to the whole twin situation. Maybe was Ghaleon too evil already to be allowed to be a Dragonmaster? Remember, in SSSC an NPC said that Dyne took the time to save a drowning puppy while Ghaleon didn't want him too, because they where running out of time.

Also, in TSS, was there any info why the Black Dragon went stir crazy?

[drumlord]

Not to discredit that quote or any other particular quote from the games, but I try not to get too hung up over particular quotes. For one, things can get new or altered meanings when translated. But on top of that, WD takes liberties with their translations, sometimes for humor, sometimes to make things flow better, etc.

[Kizyr]

That's not really a problem with the Lunar series. By and large, WD does an extremely accurate job with their translations. Most of the NPC comments like that were kept intact; the only time humour was inserted was for useless or non sequiter comments by NPCs. KF

[Alunissage]

Hmm. I thought the bit about the drowning puppy was only in Legend, since I was very surprised to see it there -- but when I played the end of SSSC in 1999 I didn't have so much reason to pay attention. I'm pretty sure the twin dragonmasters aren't mentioned in TSS, so it wouldn't make sense to associate them with the bit about Ghaleon and Dyne having a competition (if indeed that's only in TSS).

No reason is given for the Black Dragon's insanity.

[Rune Lai]

Also, if that is true, why wasn't Ghaleon a Dragonmaster at the same time as Dyne? Goes back to the whole twin situation. Maybe was Ghaleon too evil already to be allowed to be a Dragonmaster?

Dyne says in TSS that the Dragonmaster is a servant of Althena and Ghaleon was never cut out to be a servant. So I don't think it's anything to do with being "evil" so much as it's just not in his personality. Ghaleon has a certain arrogance to him and if he "knows better" that would put him at odds with being in a servant role.

[segaboy7]

I just think that any of the characters from TSS or SSSC could have been dragonmaster if they had wanted to be, with the exception of Nash just because he wanted the power for the wrong reasons. As for everyone else I don't think they wanted to be a dragonmaster, it never mentions that kyle or jessica or mia had a hope to be one. so i really think that has something to do with it, each had their own ambitions for following Alex, but becoming dragonmaster wasn't one of them.