About that supposed plot hole...

[DaWrestla]

...Now that I'm about to beat SSSC, I can honestly say I don't think it exists. Sure, nowhere does it say specifically that Althena is born multiple times...BUT! it doesn't specifically mention that this time was unique.

Having said that, it can be inferred that the chast of characters talk about it as if this was the only time, but to me that just makes sense because none of them were around to know Althena does this whole rebirth thing all the time.

So, I think it's safe to say this "plot-hole" is a whole lot of bunk. Unless, of course, there is something startling in the ending that I don't remember.

And this may be my second time playing through it, but wow...what a great game...and what a great series...DS notwithstanding. I'll have to replay EBC sometime soon, but I'm so RPGed out that I need some serious action games like GUN or Advance Wars or Shadow of the Colossus. I've played, like, 8 RPGs in a row! I can't take the battles and dungeons anymore..just give me the story.

[Alunissage]

Um, which plothole? The main one that I'm generally referring to is girls still being kidnapped even after Ghaleon's confirmed with Quark that Luna is the one.

[PrettyGirlJean]

Tired of RPGs?! Blasphemy! ;P

Play Shadow Hearts! Yes, it's an RPG, but the "dungeons" don't really seem like such and the battle system is really unique... especially in Shadow Hearts 2 where you can actually combo your enemies in the air.

^_~y

As for Althena's multiple rebirths, I think it's mentioned more specifically in TSS... however, I could be wrong because I haven't played that all the way through in nearly 5+ years... sad, I know... it's so hard for me to finish any RPG no matter how much I like it. ;_;

[Alunissage]

It's stated very clearly in TSS that she has multiple rebirths ("sometimes even as a human!"). The question mark is whether SSSC also states this or if it states that this was the only time. The whole angst thing with Ghaleon and the reasoning behind her becoming human certainly imply that this was a one-shot deal, because Ghaleon wouldn't have been so upset if it were routine and this was just one of many -- and he was close to 140 years old then and a priest of Althena and would know.

[Shiva Indis]

It's very cool of you to check up on the multiple rebirth thing in SSS. I didn't remember it being in there, but it's been a while.

I have to go with Alunissage on this one, though. Character motivations hinge on Luna's birth being world-changing.

[GhaleonOne]

Note: DS spoiler in the spoiler tag.

Honestly, I took that as more of a thing where Althena's rebirth was a final one. Not so much that the rebirth idea was new, but rather, there was something more to this one. That's what I gathered anyways, and...

[spoiler]...that's what DS implies with Lucia.[/spoiler]

[phyco126]

When I played SSSC, I never heard of TSS, EB, EBC, etc etc etc (nor have I ever been online at that time of my life.) However, when I played through it, I was given the impression that she always did multiple births and that Luna was supposed to be the final one.

I think the game supports it, although I wish I had proof. However, I think the reason Ghaleon would be so mad isn't because she was going into re-birth, but because Althena stated that she didn't want to control lunar anymore because of the problems it was causing with the people of her world. Ghaleon felt that there needs to be a supream being to keep things in balance.

[Alunissage]

Yeah, true. Ghaleon's problem with it isn't exclusive of the idea that she'd incarnated before; it was that this was to be her last rebirth, as Luna says in EB, that got him -- it's less important whether it's also her first, as the key point is that she wouldn't be returning. Perhaps this is why Dyne's power was also needed, if the process were substantially different from her usual incarnations.

Although for all we know she could have felt this every time, and become human whenever she got fed up with humans relying on her. Let them deal without her for a while and see that they don't need her for every little thing, but don't go far so that in an emergency she'd be there sort of thing. I doubt it, but it's possible. I remember Rune and/or G1 speculating that what the Dragon Angels in TSS intend to do at the end, when they say that Althena would have no recollection of her life as Luna, was sort of the emergency reboot -- recalling her to be a goddess again because that's what was needed. Ghaleon was able to 'wake' her prematurely, so perhaps her earlier incarnations were terminated by the dragons doing the same, but at the appropriate time. It isn't clear whether she'd normally be aware of her status when she was human. Though Luna in TSS was supposed to be one of those routine rebirths, and all she had were some dreams...no, she didn't even have those, it was Alex dreaming of Luna crying for help, although at that moment she was just fine. Anyway, I suppose we can take TSS Luna's existence as typical incarnation up to the point of Ghaleon's meddling; obviously this isn't the case for SSSC Luna.

I was reminded just now of the Duchess in Terry Pratchett's Monstrous Regiment, in how she felt about people praying to her and such. Anyone else read that?

[Kizyr]

and all she had were some dreams...no, she didn't even have those, it was Alex dreaming of Luna crying for help, although at that moment she was just fine.

No no, you're still right the first time. Luna had dreams of the sky growing dark and birds falling from the heavens, and she was somehow the cause of it. You just hear about it when you go back to Burg, rather than seeing it in a reddish dream sequence, as with Alex. And Nall. KF

[DaWrestla]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....looks like this debate will never die.

Anyway, I played the game and the whole time I was looking for any conclusive evidence that in SSSC Althena's rebirth was unique in the fact that it was the only one. I didn't find anything close to that. Alun mentions that Ghaleon was a priest and would know of multiple rebirths...that's a good point and I cede it. However, I still think his biggest problem was what Phyco said:

but because Althena stated that she didn't want to control lunar anymore because of the problems it was causing with the people of her world. Ghaleon felt that there needs to be a supream being to keep things in balance.

And I think the in game dialogue strongly supports this position.

DS spoilers:

[spoiler]
Since playing DS, my view has become that Lucia was the first rebirth (I think that's what it says in DS, correct me if I'm wrong). At least, this was the first rebirth with the intention of never coming back. Obviously, for some reason, I guess after Jian dies, Lucia goes back to being Althena.

Fast forward to the Heresy War. Althena decides once and for all that she's going to try this rebirth thing and stay that way.

Fast forward to SSSC. The ordeals in this story...the fact that the Five Heroes were able to save the world on their own. With the "power of humanity", if you will, plus her love for Alex, only solidify her resolve to never become the Goddess again. Which actually happens, this time.
[/spoiler]

As for my RPGed-out phase. No way...I just can't take another damn dungeon. Or battles...ugh. As much as I still loved this playthrough of SSSC, I didn't have as much patience to check every wall and talk to every person in every town. If I hadn't played 7 or some-odd RPGs in a row prior to this (which I'd never done because of school/athletics...both of which are over, now), I would have enjoyed SSSC this second-time through just that much more. It's such a good game. I really wish I had the stamina to play through EBC again, but I just can't. I need some action/sports game goodness.

[Alunissage]

Yeah, you're probably right. I'd always had the feeling when playing SSSC that that was the only time, but that might have been just projecting because we actually see Althena having a specific reason for quitting permanently there before she met Alex, not just deciding to live her life with him after the events of TSS.
The emphasis is definitely on that, not on her general nature, while in TSS there's a fair bit of emphasis on Althena's habit of rebirth because if she's not in her tower then she might be a human, hint hint. Ghaleon's taking advantage of a known history of hers to grab power.

DS spoiler:
[spoiler]Is it indicated in DS that Althena was intending to stay human, or just to be human long enough to escape from Ignatius? I haven't played enough in English to find out.[/spoiler]

[GhaleonOne]

Regarding DS...

[spoiler]Lucia wasn't the first rebirth. I remember at least one instance of the game mentioning she had been born multiple times. I believe by Titus Loren. Even more support for this is Althena beginning to start the feelings that ultimately led to her final rebirth in Lunar 1.[/spoiler]