Luna's Holo (spoilers)

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Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby Kazie Solo » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:56 am

This was mentioned in the EBC thread, and I'm curious as I haven't played the original version yet, so I gotta ask. Especially since G1 said the remake ruined the 'element of surprise.'

What exactly was/were the difference/s between Luna's holo in the original versus the remake?
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Postby DevNall » Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:28 pm

I believe that was more of a reference to the setup in the original Silver Star versus the remake. In other words, the surprise was spoiled more by hints in the remake of the Silver Star.

However, in terms of pure differences, one of the most noticable is that in the original version, Luna appears looking like the usual Althena:
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whereas in the remake, she appears as an older woman.

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Postby ilovemyguitar » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:30 am

There is no talk of Althena choosing to step down as a Goddess in TSS. This is how the element of surprise was removed in the remakes; if you have played SSSC you know that Althena is no longer a Goddess before you get to the top of the Goddess Tower in Pentagulia, but if you've only played TSS you don't.
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Postby GhaleonOne » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:46 am

Yeah, what they said. The hologram in EB vs. EBC wasn't that different. The only changes there, and most of those were earlier in the Fortress of Althena, was that EBC threw in that bit about Althena having destroyed the Blue Star originally. In the original EB, they never directly stated who actually destroyed the Blue Star. It was assumed Zophar had done it, and Althena had to move the people to Lunar because of his destruction. I like that change in the remake, actually. My beef is with the changes in SSSC. In TSS, it's never mentioned that Lunar remained human. I always got the impression that Luna was just another reincarnation of Althena and that after she died, she became Althena again. If I remember right, TSS even said Althena had been reincarnated as various beings, sometimes as human, other times not. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I last played TSS.

Either way, the element of surprise that Luna had passed away both as a human and the Goddess was lost in the remake because SSSC pretty much gave that away. In EB, you really thought Althena was still alive until that hologram. It was a massive shock, especially with Nall there. In EBC, you didn't know 100%, but there was more than subtle hints in SSSC that already had you wondering. Maybe it's my own view though, having played the originals and knowing what was coming. Anyone who played the remakes before the originals that can say whether they knew that was coming or not?
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Postby Alunissage » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:55 am

Yeah, TSS says that sometimes she's even incarnated as a human. It's very clear that she did this multiple times. The only thing to suggest that this particular time was different was the Dragon Angels saying that if they awakened her back to her benign, normal goddess self she'd lose all memory of being Luna, yet Alex manages to recall her back to being Luna instead.

I was going to say that I couldn't answer the question of what it'd be like to play the remakes before the originals, but then I remembered that actually I played EB after SSSC. It was still a surprise to me, but of course I was coming from the direction that clearly the remake screwed up lots of stuff, so it could hardly be trusted to predict what was in EB, which, after all, was to be remade also. The reasoning regarding Althena's incarnations was the most screwed-up part of the game, so Luna's not having MP, etc., didn't tell me anything about the sequel to the non-butchered storyline. About the only thing I specifically remember knowing about in EB that I wouldn't have known had I only played TSS was that there was a girl left behind on the Blue Star.

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Postby exigence » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:32 am

GhaleonOne wrote:Yeah, what they said. The hologram in EB vs. EBC wasn't that different. The only changes there, and most of those were earlier in the Fortress of Althena, was that EBC threw in that bit about Althena having destroyed the Blue Star originally. In the original EB, they never directly stated who actually destroyed the Blue Star. It was assumed Zophar had done it, and Althena had to move the people to Lunar because of his destruction. I like that change in the remake, actually. My beef is with the changes in SSSC. In TSS, it's never mentioned that Lunar remained human. I always got the impression that Luna was just another reincarnation of Althena and that after she died, she became Althena again. If I remember right, TSS even said Althena had been reincarnated as various beings, sometimes as human, other times not. I could be wrong though, it's been a while since I last played TSS.

Either way, the element of surprise that Luna had passed away both as a human and the Goddess was lost in the remake because SSSC pretty much gave that away. In EB, you really thought Althena was still alive until that hologram. It was a massive shock, especially with Nall there. In EBC, you didn't know 100%, but there was more than subtle hints in SSSC that already had you wondering. Maybe it's my own view though, having played the originals and knowing what was coming. Anyone who played the remakes before the originals that can say whether they knew that was coming or not?


i played through both SSSC the EBC first now that iv played TSS i can see what you mean for me there was no suprise in EBC because SSSC made everything so obivious twards the ending, iv still yet to play the origonal EB. i just wish i could go back in time and stop myself from playing SSSC first.
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Postby ilovemyguitar » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:44 am

I wouldn't go too far out of the way to play EB if it's just a matter of seeing the story differences. While the differences between TSS and SSSC are astounding, those between EB and EBC are mostly in gameplay only. The chages made to EBC are for the most part simply character-driven embellishments to the plot (the scene in Althena's Spring, Lucia bathing at the Water Ruins, etc).
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:23 am

Some of those are fairly significant, though, like the scene with Hiro being crystallized. Azado was also very different, though in a self-contained way.

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Postby exigence » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:27 am

ilovemyguitar wrote:I wouldn't go too far out of the way to play EB if it's just a matter of seeing the story differences. While the differences between TSS and SSSC are astounding, those between EB and EBC are mostly in gameplay only. The chages made to EBC are for the most part simply character-driven embellishments to the plot (the scene in Althena's Spring, Lucia bathing at the Water Ruins, etc).


you dont realize how akward it is having played through every other game in the series, its just one of those things you gotta do i dont know how id feel if i knew id never get to play EB.
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Postby GhaleonOne » Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:10 am

like the scene with Hiro being crystallized


Yeah, I hated that change more than anything. I really liked Ghaleon's comments about wanting to know the secrets of the Blue Spire. Like he had an another motive that he wasn't letting on. Plus, it was big props to Ronfar for sticking up for Hiro with Lucia was too consumed with her mission.

The other Ghaleon moment that was removed was the anime scene that was reduced to voice in Pentagulia where Lucia is chained up. That was one of my favorite scenes.
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Postby Alunissage » Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:48 am

The thing I liked best about that crystal bit was that it proved me right in saying that that statue in the Blue Spire looked like it was hiding a door, which I did the first time I saw it at the beginning of the game. =)

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Postby Temzin » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:16 am

It's fun to jump back to the L 'net every so often, and here's just the thread for it!

I can't recommend playing the original Lunar~EB highly enough. Though I'm in the unusual situation of vastly preferring SSS over TSS because of its better cohesion (except for the loss of the gloom and urgency after the Magic Emperor's appearance), I much prefer the original Lunar~EB. I adored the EB remake's additions (particularly with Jean and the woods spring as well), but the things that are missing really hurt the remake. The little things do make a big difference as everyone's noted, especially the more subtle Azado scene and Lucia's conflict with Hiero being made crystal. The simplified dungeons are of course a shame (Zophar's Castle in the original is the best last dungeon I have ever played, even better than those of Final Fantasy VI and VIII), and the omission of the Phantom Sentry as a real character just KILLED the mountain pass and the epilogue for me in the remake. That random gunslinger was such a cool thing in the original, and gave hints at something much more big and mysterious than even the quest at hand.

And for me, another HUGE thing that I've seen mentioned on LunarHope but seldom elsewhere is criticism on the EB remake's animation quality. Oddly enough, the characters' faces in the original are drawn much much better than in the remake even if the overall animation quality is better in the remake. It's simply bizarre, but if you even Youtube a Lunar 1&2 music video and compare the faces in the remake footage of SSS and EB, you can see how dramatically Gonzo's efforts seem to have fallen after SSS. The eyes are no longer round, and there are these constant side shots where faces in EB remake literally look square and blocky...compare the pictures of Ghaleon's final moments in EB remake to the picture found say on Rune's Shrine to Ghaleon and you can see how high-quality the Mega CD and SSS art is. Given the complete dearth of design material informatoin on the EB remake (as compared to the 4 CD, Newtype book-accompanied media blitz of SSS's release), I simply cannot account for the dramatic fall in drawing quality.

Grab the original EB for sure. I promise you won't regret it.

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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby Jenner » Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:41 am

The Luna being Old thing is my favorite change in EBC, and I'm not a big fan of changes. I definitely preferred the elderly Luna to the young beautiful Luna in EB. I definitely preferred BONDAGE!LUCIA over no-anime-sequence-for-you.
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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby Alunissage » Tue Jun 03, 2008 7:53 am

Well, the difference is not so much between old Luna and young Luna but between Luna and Althena. Which actually fits in with the differences between TSS and SSSC mentioned upthread; since after playing SSSC you know already that Luna is no longer the Goddess (and it's underlined with her MP = 0), it would seem quite a nonsequitur to have Althena in the recording when the strong implication at the end of SSSC is that she would have been unable to resume her identity as Althena, or at least her powers as such. In EB, you have that first moment of seeing her hologram dressed as the Goddess and so it isn't until she starts speaking that you fully get that the holo is all there is of her -- a surprise akin to Lucia's, since like Lucia you don't know that she made that choice, if you've only played TSS.

(Of course, my personal feeling is that since she clearly retained her power after TSS to be able to make the recording as Althena in EB, and possibly also in SSSC no matter what green zero appeared in her stats, she didn't actually cease to exist after that, instead reincarnating as that priestess Serak and leaving her tears there. But that's just me. I do agree that taking the SSS storyline at face value the old Luna makes more sense and works well.)

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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby DezoPenguin » Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:31 am

Alunissage wrote:Well, the difference is not so much between old Luna and young Luna but between Luna and Althena. Which actually fits in with the differences between TSS and SSSC mentioned upthread; since after playing SSSC you know already that Luna is no longer the Goddess (and it's underlined with her MP = 0), it would seem quite a nonsequitur to have Althena in the recording when the strong implication at the end of SSSC is that she would have been unable to resume her identity as Althena, or at least her powers as such. In EB, you have that first moment of seeing her hologram dressed as the Goddess and so it isn't until she starts speaking that you fully get that the holo is all there is of her -- a surprise akin to Lucia's, since like Lucia you don't know that she made that choice, if you've only played TSS.

(Of course, my personal feeling is that since she clearly retained her power after TSS to be able to make the recording as Althena in EB, and possibly also in SSSC no matter what green zero appeared in her stats, she didn't actually cease to exist after that, instead reincarnating as that priestess Serak and leaving her tears there. But that's just me. I do agree that taking the SSS storyline at face value the old Luna makes more sense and works well.)


That was actually some interesting weirdness. During the EB hologram scene, she tells you that she decided to stay human as Luna, and yet she looks exactly like the Goddess Althena. I really, really prefer the updated version because it points out that there's more to her "being human" than just getting to be with her sweetie. Moreover, the EB version was definitely less "magitek" in the Goddess Tower than EBC was with Althena's Fortress (though the Blue Spire and Ghaleon's hologram machine* in the Mystic Ruins were still magitekky).

*Actually, here's one for you, Alun. Ghaleon's hologram of destroying Vane** is actually foreshadowing Luna's appearance as a magical hologram message. Come to think of it, if you look at it one way, that entire scene exists as a semi-justification that you don't have to be divine to leave a message.

Come to think of it, Luna clearly does retain some power, or else she wouldn't be able to see the future and leave the message for Lucia, or write the letter to Hiro. Of course, SSSC's Royce points out that, again, you don't have to be a Goddess to see the future. But I never once considered that she might be lying about being Gone Forever in that scene (actually, when push comes to shove, Lunar is kind of my poster child for Take Things At Face Value simply because of the innocent purity of heroes like Alex and Hiro who DO take things at face value and succeed in doing so). What made you think of that?

**There's another scene that the TSS/SSSC changes semi-wrecked, come to think of it (I mean the scene in the Mystic Ruins where Ghaleon's doing his gloating)

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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby cj iwakura » Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:40 am

So the Hiro-crystallization scene wasn't in Complete? That explains why it felt so unfamiliar.

(I haven't played through EB in a decade+. :P)

Weird thing to remove, it was pretty intense. The remakes seem to like removing the depressing stuff. (Like Burg's enslavement in TSS.)
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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby GhaleonOne » Tue Jun 23, 2009 11:22 pm

If they do a remake of EB to go along with this SS PSP remake, I seriously hope they consider some of the things mentioned in this thread. There are things to take from the remake, and mix in with the best of the original. It wouldn't take much either. Add back in some anime scenes that were cut (Four Heroes intro's, the Ghaleon Pentagulia scene) along with Hiro's crystalization, the Star Dragon Sentry, Borgan's toughness, then mix it with some of the better changes (Luna being old, extra stuff in the epilouge, updated graphics) and the game would be gold.
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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby swordandshield » Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:46 pm

I feel like they downgraded the original games by making the Complete versions as they are. It's sad that a lot of the stuff had to be taken out or changed because it had some religious content in it. We lose out on so much stuff when they censor things. It just makes the game not as interesting and the last time I checked there wasn't any strict family standards like back in the 1990's with Nintendo. Nowadays it's much more tolerant of such things and there isn't as much ridicule about legalism for religious elements being found in video games and cinematography. There still is some, mostly by the Vatican but they aren't as enforced as they used to be.

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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby Alunissage » Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:30 pm

Um, where are you getting the idea that things in Lunar were changed because of religious content? The only change that was even remotely like that was that Sega of America made WD change the pentacles on the various transports in the two SegaCD games.

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Re: Luna's Holo (spoilers)

Postby swordandshield » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:23 pm

I'm surprised you don't know, I was disappointed about it forever.

They did make those minor changes to in the SegaCD versions but there was strict family standards before the release of those, more towards Nintendo with translation having to be changed from certain items, cutscenes, and dialog. But the very same thing has happened with Silver Star and SSSC as well and a lot worse than the changes made in the originals, remember Alex's parents being replaced with demonic imposters when he went back to Burg to find that it was being enslaved by demons? That never took place in the PS1 remake.

Also Ghaleon's personality was drastically altered due to how he was in the original because of the strict family standards which caused Working Designs to change it. I guess it scared too many people...I don't know but it's just sad. Real sad.

There was also a lot of error in the translations and it being localized so that had something to do with it as well because of Working Designs changing what the original developers from Game Arts did. I'm just angry that they had to remake it and take out all of the stuff that was what really made me love the games. When you think of a remake you think of it being improved, not downgraded, it should be the definitive version.

Look at Lunar Legends in contrast to SSSC, major difference, I must prefer SSSC but I much prefer Silver Star over both. Hopefully these PSP remakes fix these issues and finally make them definitive. I'll still play SSSC and EBC but it'll be a shame to not get a remake that is only the same as the previous remakes, there's like no point if they are the same.


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