Serious plot issues with DS now that I've completed it

[DaWrestla]

I have a long list of plot issues in regards to DS - SSSC - EBC:

[spoiler]

1) Why does Lucia/Althena have pink instead of blue hair? Althena pre-LDS, pre-SSSC, SSSC, and EBC all have blue hair. So why does this Althena have pink? I know in terms of the developers wanting to throw off fans of the series, pink is a good reason, but I'm talking continuity here, people. What gives?

2) Why did they have to re-use the name Lucia for the DS heroine? Couldn't they have made some other kind of Lunar-inspired heroine name? Like "Lunia" or "Lunara", or something?

3) The four dragons in SSSC and EBC all look exactly alike. Then why are the four dragons of DS different? Ruby as an adult looked exactly like the Red Dragon in SSSC. Yeah, Nall didn't look like Quark, but Quark was a geezer, so maybe that's not a fair comparison. Either way, the Dragons in LDS are *drastically* different from their SSSC and EBC counterparts. I'm also willing to ignore the fact that the dragons in the hieroglyphics in EBC all clearly resemble traditional dragons (i.e. 4 legs and a pair of wings), because an explanation for that is simply that humans created the hieroglyphics and didn't know what the dragons really looked like, so they just made them all look alike.

4) Do the 4 dragons in DS die? The white dragon makes it sound like they do, but then I think it was the blue one that just mentioned him loosing his form. I guess a good explanation is simply that they can't stay corporeal while two *opposing* dragonmasters exist (which would explain how we could have twin dragonmasters in the future). However, if they die, then it's a good explanation that Althena post-DS simply creates 4 new ones. Either way, I'm assuming the SSSC dragons are created post-DS.

5) The dragonmaster armor? The whole game I was PRAYING that I would fight Ignatius in the dragonmaster armor, with the dragonmaster sword. That would of clearly explained why Jian got rings instead of the armor. However, that final battle never happened, and the armor and sword is nowhere to be seen. I have a hard time believing they don't exist yet. So, I guess it's just safe to assume that Ignatius has them, and if he would have fought with Jian and was on the brink of losing, he would have busted them out.

6) Some people think Althena's love for Jian takes away from the Luna/Alex story. I don't. I think it makes it stronger. Why? Because Althena had loved a human once and still saw fit to become a goddess again, but when she meets Alex, that all changes. This works with my theory that in SSSC, Luna was born to Dyne with the intention of probably making it her last rebirth (with the lessons she learned from the DS experience). This is what upsets Ghaleon (not that he knows what happened in DS). But, it isn't until Luna/Althena meets Alex that the decision is made final. This is the one area where I feel DS makes SSSC and EBC stronger.

7) In my opinion, Searis becomes Burg and Noapeace becomes Meribia. Kirlis might become Myght's tower. Vane is probably created by students of the Magic School in the Cathedral of Althena, and has no connection to either of the two towns on the same continent. But, this is all just speculation.

There is absolutely no point in the entire Rufus character. He is only in your party for a second, yet he get's his picture on the box art and is treated like a fourth hero. In reality, DS is the "Three Heroes Story". Rufus was given WAY too much credit.

9) Titus turning into a fairy at the end is kind of neat, and kind of ties DS to EBC (are there any fairies in SSSC?).

10) At no point do I recall exactly WHAT Ignatius' motives were.

[/spoiler]

I know that's kind of long, gang. I checked other boards and didn't find any of these issues really fleshed out, so let's do that here. It should be fun!!!

EDIT:

In regards to issue 1):

[spoiler]
In all fairness to the developers, Lucia's face (from DS) looks almost identical to Luna's. I suppose the face would be a more important aspect to replicate than the hair.
[/spoiler]

[Alunissage]

[spoiler]1) I agree on the hair, but it makes a teeny bit more sense in the US version, oddly....in the Japanese one Althena is shown even in the opening picture as having pink hair, while in the US one she's back to blue. She's wearing the same costume as in SSSC and EB/EBC. When you see her near the end, she's wearing a different outfit (unless this was changed in the US release) and is pink-haired...I think perhaps this is to indicate that she's still strongly identified as Lucia, even in the aspect of the goddess. She's not fully returned as Althena, right? The whole chamber of rebirth thing...I haven't seen it in context, but it sounds as if she's not all the way there yet. Perhaps at that point she'd be he usual blue-haired self...or, if fully under Ignatius's control, she could be Dark Althena from SSSC.

2) In Japanese it's different. EB's heroine was "ruushia" (romanized Lucier) while Genesis's is "rushia". I agree, and would have liked to see Lucie if it must be retained, but the localizers evidently didn't see any better option.

3) Can't help you here. But did the Blue Dragon have rainbow wings in both SSSC and EBC? It does seem odd that the dragons have webbed wings (at least in that first picture) when feathers were flying all over the place in SSS's intro.

4) I'm assuming those particular dragons cease to exist. However, Shigema (scenario developer for the series) has said that dragons are the embodiment of the magical power, which fits with what the Blue Dragon says.

5) Hm. I'd assumed that it just didn't exist yet (no need for a sword if the hero can't use it), but you make a good point. Yes, that seems silly. Unless there had never before been thought a need for the dragonmaster to have armor. I like the comment elsewhere on this board that the dragons had already given the stuff to Ignatius which is why they only had rings for Jian.

6) I guess. I'm still thinking about that one. Interesting take on it.

7) Noapeace is that town on Ghulian, the first one? I suppose it'd be in about the right location relative to the others. Burg, however, is a new settlement when Dyne is a child; on the other hand, Searis sounds a lot like Saith to me.

8) I believe he was intended to be more present, or at least more dramatic, originally but the text and all got cut down so much that he seems pointless. I would have liked to see more of him, so his sacrifice meant something more.

9) Yes, there are fairies in Ghaleon's garden in SSSC. I'm pretty sure, anyway; they're definitely in TSS and Legend.

10) Wasn't it just the usual power grab thing? He's building the Vile Tribe into an organization. I dunno.[/spoiler]

[Kizyr]

[spoiler]7) It's more likely that Liefon becomes Meribia. It's the proper size and the proper location relative to the Shrine to Althena. Ghulian is further out where the Marius / Stadius Zones would eventually be. Searis isn't likely to be Burg, as Burg is rural and inland, not a large coastal town. Searis is more likely to be Saith, though the location is different. Perit is about the same place as Burg, however.[/spoiler] KF

[DaWrestla]

In response to you all:

[spoiler]
1) I guess you make a good point that Althena wasn't *completely* althena. Had she been, I'm assuming she would have gone back to the Althena hair and outfit we see in the DS intro and EBC

2) We agree, then

3) Hmmm....maybe the blue dragons were a little different in SSSC and EBC. I'll have to look closely at that again when I replay it.

4) If that's the case, I feel sorry for the people that have to deal with the next 4 baby dragons.

5) Yeah, I'm gonna stick with the theory that the armor and sword had already been given to Ignatius.

6) Thanks

7) If you look at the maps between DS SSSC and EBC, then Ghulian clearly looks like it shifts up and to the left a bit, which would put Noapeace where Meribia is. Looking again at the SSSC map, it looks to me like Leaphon (sp) ends up being sunk underwater....or floats in the sky and becomes Vane thanks to the Magic School. Oh, and I had MEANT to say that Searis becomes Saith, but after thinking about it, I disagree with that, too. Only because Searis is in the north of the continent, and Saith was in the south. However, towns come and go a lot over the course of a 1000 years, so this speculation actually achieves nothing and is useless, but fun.

At least he was supposed to be more present

9) I'll keep an eye out for fairies in SSSC, I'm going to replay it now that I've beaten DS

10) I'll rebeat DS and see if the ending gives any clues.

[/spoiler]

[Angelalex242]

The easiest way to check on the dragons in EBC is likely going to be just watching the assault on Pentagulia FMV. You can get a view of all 4 in full flight.

Given that FMV, the Blue Dragon's wings don't seem particularly rainbowish.

Then again, SSSC's Blue Dragon met the same Grindery fate as the rest, so he also died in that machine.

[DaWrestla]

Did they all die in SSSC in the grindery? I don't remember that part. I'm gonna start my re-play of it tomorrow. Tonight, I'm going to re-beat DS. I figure might as well go for the trinity after SSSC and replay EBC. What I really should do is play Golden Sun 1 & 2, which are the last two games of what was my long list of RPGs I owned but had yet to play (included a Zelda, several Final Fantasies, both Kingdom Hearts, and EBC)

[Angelalex242]

They aren't SHOWN dying...indeed, Dark Althena's voice causes all of them to lift their heads and their eyes to glow white...

Then again, being locked into the tons of steel the Grindery is certainly fatal.

[Shiva Indis]

The attack on Pentagulia FMV is not a good source, because the gradiated coloring would've been too difficult in animation that dynamic. In fact, the Blue Dragon has multicolored wings in every appearance in the EB remake EXCEPT that FMV.

Actually, it looks like ESP just reused the same image of the Blue Dragon in his cave that was used in SSS. Possible explanations: the developers were REALLY cheap; the developers had REALLY bad communication; the Blue Dragon is the same dragon; or this is a different dragon that looks exactly like the previous one.

Original EB Blue Dragon, FMV (This one looks more like the one in the EB remake animation)

SSS Blue Dragon

EB Remake Blue Dragon (in cave)

EB Remake Blue Dragon (in flight)

[DaWrestla]

Clearly seems to me that the Blue dragon is the same blue dragon.

You know, based on the events of DS (two dragonmasters and all) I can see how it was an extrenous case that there were two people that passed the trials at seperate times, the latter to oppose the former.

Clearly, when Ignatius passed the trials the same dragons were around for Jian. After Ignatius passed the trials (and the dragonmaster equipment was given to him) there was nothing left for the dragons to give Jian...except the rings. And a strong argument could be made that the Rings are the embodiment of the dragons, which are themselves the embodiment of magic on Lunar. I think it's safe to assume that if a second dragonmaster were necessary to fight an evil Dragonmaster Alex, that the same thing would have happened to the dragons in SSSC...they would have ceased to exist and then 4 new baby dragons would have taken their place.

You know, this is one issue that to me is resolved. Thank goodness.

[Kizyr]

That seems like a sound theory. That the dragons are an embodiment of the magic power which sustains Lunar is pretty evident and directly stated (from DS, SSS, the SSS novels, etc.). That they wink out or lose their corporeal form in certain situations is likewise reasonable...

I'd have to mull over that theory for a while if I were to accept it myself, though. KF

[GhaleonOne]

The only question still left unanswered is how Quark is so old in TSS. Between that, Vane and a number of other issues, this game would fit fine if it were pushed back at least another 2000 years.

[DevNall]

It may be possible that you see what the Dragons want you to see. A lot of people tend to perceive Quark as the old, wise dragon -- maybe that's what he wants you to see.

Remember Nall takes three forms in EB, while I don't think he had more... who knows?

[Angelalex242]

The Original White Dragon is a deceiver (For a good cause, but still...)

That his very form might be a deception isn't impossible.

[DaWrestla]

Kiz: Why would you have to mull over the theory? Why don't you accept it? And what do you accept? I'm curious.

G1: Why do you feel it does not fit fine the way it is; 1000 years before SSSC? Granted, there are the issues I stated above, but I've come to theories that seem to work well and hence quell my speculation.

I think it's kind of cool that we can all come up with theories that equaly work in the greater Lunar Universe.

[Alunissage]

It doesn't work well 1000 years before Lunar 1 because both Vane's founding and the Magic Empire were supposed to be 1000 years before then. Even allowing for some rounding issues, there just isn't enough magic around to make either plausible in the world of DS (although I did have fun taking off on MiaOne's idea of a resolution in another thread). Quark's apparent age is just one more factor.

I imagine Kiz wants to think the theory over to see if there are other things in the materials to conflict with it and if it feels right; it's fairly different from anything suggested.

[GhaleonOne]

What she said. And as a side note, I've just finished capturing every book in Vane in both SSSC and EBC and Damon's Spire in SSSC. I'm going to go back and get them in TSS and EB next, and create a new section for the site for them. This should help us in these discussions as these libraries are proving to be a wealth of good information regarding how DS fits into the series.

[Shiva Indis]

I learned something suprising from the book Lunar: The Silver Star World of Lunar and Capture Guide, which I've been posting summaries out of recently...

Shigema had the concept that the Dragons are embodiments of Althena's magic power in mind from the beginning of the series. Here's the quote:
"The Dragon Clan, which has existed since the time of the world's creation, are the greatest of the magical creatures that guard Althena. The White Dragon, Red Dragon, Blue Dragon, and Black Dragon rule over the various spirits of wind, fire, water, and earth, and are embodiments of those magic powers. As they are not flesh and blood creatures it is believed that they do not grow old or die."

And while (like many things in this series,) it's possible that Shigema just changed his mind, Quark's still the only Dragon that seemed old, and he didn't seem nearly so old in the original version. Perhaps Satou Hajime showed the top staffers cool concepts of an aged-looking dragon and they decided to let go of their reservations? Or perhaps in the SSS timeline Quark has ALWAYS looked old?

[MiaOne]

There can be more than one type of Dragon alive at the same time? I mean...Quark could of been alive during DS, just not the main dragon. I mean he could of been like a teenage dragon during DS but since there was an older dragon alive during that time he was no the one who Jian would of had to fight to become a Dragonmaster.

[Nobiyuki77]

Wow this is a very interesting discussion. Having just finished DS myself I think I'll jump into the fray! ^^

[spoiler]I'd have to agree that I think the reason they ended DS so abruptly the way they did is to not have a depressing ending with Althena's tears flooding the world etc. It's not a very LUNAR style way to end the game... and was possibly trying to set up another game. (though considering the Japanese sales numbers which are obviously not very high, I'm seriously begining to think that this is THE last LUNAR game we'll ever see. Unless it does spectacularly here that is, which I doubt will happen with all of it's bad reviews... Oh and retailers insisting on selling it for $39.99)

And as we all know from LUNAR: EBC (and virtually every other RPG ever made), falling off of a cliff is a sure-fire way to survive anything and come back years later without so much as a scratch. ^^

As for the whole Lucia/Althena aspect of the plot, I think that Lucia didn't realize she was Althena and visa-versa at any time during the story because she was never told. Whereas Luna was captured after having been TOLD she was the Goddess, Lucia was just captured and then transformed. I'm not quite sure how she was once again reborn as Lucia at the end though.

I'm not sure, I'll have to do some serious replaying here, though I think that some aspect might have either been lost in tranlsation, or that WD was just so thorough on the Sega CD and PSX that we didn't miss anything. ^^[/spoiler]

[Alunissage]

Nobi, it's extremely unlikely that the developers were actually paying attention to that little bit of backstory from TSS that is never repeated in any of the other games. It's just something they SHOULD have thought of. I'm sure they just thought they were being cleverly mysterious.

Where in EBC does someone fall off a cliff and live? If you're referring to Ghaleon, he was certainly dead, and even slightly decomposed...hardly without a scratch.

Luna wasn't told anything, just hinted at strongly. It was one of those SSSC plotholes, since in TSS her identity wasn't shown until long after her capture, and several girls are taken after her.

Kizyr's already mentioned that the WD translations were very close to the Japanese versions he's played.