Finally beat it.

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Sonic# » Thu May 14, 2015 4:16 am

Leo wrote:
It's hilarious yet depressing that we're all so hard up for another Lunar that many of us actually FINISHED Dragon Song.

I am still holding out. I played enough of a game to have a feel for the systems and that I didn't like them. I might pick it up again someday, but I imagine that they would release a new Lunar before they tried to port or remake Dragon Song.

(Which is a shame in some ways, because I think a solid ground-up rework by competent designers who had some time could make Dragon Song into a good JRPG.)

Magical School - I still need to start and finish that. I have the game now, so I could emulate it.

LunarRaptor wrote:@ all: in any case, unless any of you can prove that they cared, my stance is unchanged. I don't care if the assumption that they "didn't give a hoot" is insulting. They deserve to be thought of in that light for this slap in the face of a game. I'm not budging until you can prove they did throw their hearts and souls into this. So out with the proof, or roll over.


Given that my purpose is not to prove anything to you but to have a good conversation about what might have gone wrong with Dragon Song, you will remain unconvinced and without proof for your own stance.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Thu May 14, 2015 6:02 pm

Alunissage wrote:If you haven't picked up that there are things I know that I can't share in the years you've been posting here, well, I don't know what to say.


It's a video game. How can there be stuff you "can't say"? We aren't talking about mafia secrets.

LunarRaptor wrote:@ all: in any case, unless any of you can prove that they cared, my stance is unchanged. I don't care if the assumption that they "didn't give a hoot" is insulting. They deserve to be thought of in that light for this slap in the face of a game. I'm not budging until you can prove they did throw their hearts and souls into this. So out with the proof, or roll over.

Also, Alunissage, you may try to put on a polite front, but I can tell that you think I'm just a complete idiot. The attitude permeates your every response to me. Not the best way to change my mind. You speak of nuance, but I see right through you. I lack nothing and I will not be told that I do by you.


Why let someone that doesn't know you on a personal level get under your skin? You don't need for them to validate your opinion, which I agree with in part. The truth likely lies somewhere between what you're saying and the things they're saying. Either way, if it was that important to anyone involved, a lot of preventative measures would have been taken to lower the odds of that happening.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Thu May 14, 2015 7:11 pm

Leo: Given that my purpose is not to prove anything to you but to have a good conversation about what might have gone wrong with Dragon Song, you will remain unconvinced and without proof for your own stance.

As far as I am concerned, the only proof I need is the game, itself, and it speaks several volumes worth alone. You seem to be coming down on me awfully hard for just wanting good conversation.

Why let someone that doesn't know you on a personal level get under your skin? You don't need for them to validate your opinion, which I agree with in part. The truth likely lies somewhere between what you're saying and the things they're saying. Either way, if it was that important to anyone involved, a lot of preventative measures would have been taken to lower the odds of that happening.

I don't like being spoken down to, verbally or in written form.

Alunissage: If you haven't picked up that there are things I know that I can't share in the years you've been posting here, well, I don't know what to say.

What Leo said.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Thu May 14, 2015 7:36 pm

It's not that I'm coming down on you, it's that nobody is going to change Alunissage. You told her that you see right through her but with all of the things you've inferred about her in your time here, didn't you realize that she's intelligent and knows that everyone can tell the things in which you seem to think she believes are a secret? She's quite comfortable here and understandably so since she's clearly one of the earliest posters.

The more realistic solution is the prospect of you being open to deciding that it's not worth letting it bother you, so I figured I'd give that a shot.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Thu May 14, 2015 7:58 pm

Alright, I'll drop it. I don't plan on changing Alunissage or anyone else, I just don't like the feeling that the other person in the conversation thinks they're better than me.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Thu May 14, 2015 9:26 pm

Thank you, Leo. I think.

LunarRaptor, I really don't know how to address this, but I'll try one more time: When I say your arguments lack nuance, I am not saying that you lack nuance. If I feel that my, or Sonic's (since he's probably the best, er, arguer here, for lack of a better term) arguments are better, that is not the same thing as saying that he and I are intrinsically better people than you are.

But honestly, your concept of having a good conversation doesn't line up very well with other people's. This particular thread is only the most recent example.

You: Game X sucked. Anyone know why?
Me: Dunno. For some reason no one saw how elements ABCDEF combined really badly. Probably not enough time.
(Leo, Sonic, me: side discussion about Ubisoft.)
Sonic: Some of elements ABCDEF have worked in other games and/or could work here if balanced correctly.
You: Game X sucked because reason Y.
Sonic: That doesn't necessarily follow, because Y-prime would also explain it.
You: Professional programmers and companies, ergo reason Y. I won't believe anything else.
Me: That's not a very nuanced opinion that you keep repeating. (implied) Why don't you address what other people are saying?
You: I am too being nuanced. Y, Y, Y. Provide evidence of not-Y. What total-opposite-of-Y are you seeing that I'm not?
Sonic: Where's your evidence that Y is the reason for outcome Z (game X sucking)? Here are more granular reasons why Y is not the only possible explanation.
Me: There's a spectrum between Y and total-opposite-of-Y, not just the binary you're setting up. (Also, you're irritating the hell out of me with your Yning.) I reiterate: Sonic's discussion of alternate explanations Y' and Y", plus anecdote about software dev life, plus box copy that supports Y" as a motivation.
You: Unless any of you can prove not-Y, I will continue to shout Y! Not addressing anything else said other than Y. I'm not budging. Prove total-opposite-of-Y "or roll over." Also, I lack nothing (even though I have nowhere responded to any of the specifics suggesting things other than Y.)
Sonic: My purpose is to converse and discuss, not prove anything to you, so unconvinced you will remain.
Leo: Chill, dude. Don't take it so personal. The truth likely lies somewhere between Y and not-Y.
You: Outcome Z proves premise Y. Leo, you're hitting me awfully hard for just wanting good conversation (like "prove it or roll over"). I don't like being talked down to (roll over, of course, is entirely egalitarian).
Leo: No one's going to change Alunissage, and even though you claim to see right through her you're missing the obvious about her.
You: Okay, since it's you asking, I'll drop it.

N.b., I'm just writing that up in the preview so I can't see the earliest posts.

Can you really not see the disconnect between insisting Y while totally ignoring suggestions for not-Y? The rudeness in ignoring all attempts to discuss other possible explanations? It's like you see it as a battle and even addressing things other than what you said would be showing weakness or something. We're not disagreeing with you that the game sucked. We're not even disagreeing with the idea that someone didn't care about the property -- just that that's the only and entire reason. Some of us have real-world experiences informing our notion that there are other factors at play.

As regards knowing things I can't talk about: NDAs exist. Yes, even for videogames. And even if they didn't, professional courtesy also exists. So, you know, even if Sonic or I had an anguished email from a developer about how much they love the series and hate themselves for shoving the game out the door rather than be fired, it wouldn't be posted here. (That's a fictional example, by the way. As far as I know.) And that's all I have to say about that. Please note, neither of us was claiming knowledge of not-Y, just pointing out that Y:Z is not a one-to-one relationship.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Fri May 15, 2015 2:01 am

The reason I pushed back with such force to begin with is because you, Alunissage, just had to go on the offensive when I said:
"I have difficulty believing that a product made by a professional company that hired professional programmers could have turned out this bad if they gave a hoot."
You: "You're doing that thing again where you state a strong unnuanced negative opinion and continue to state it louder and louder whenever discussion shows up. Engage with what other people are saying or don't bother to post."
I still maintain that I did nothing of the sort at that point. I posted what I honestly feelings. Sorry I didn't "engage" with your side topic of Ubi's involvement. After you and Leo replied the first time, I sat back and thought about the possibilities of "caring about the wrong thing" or just "not having time". It didn't change my mind. It just didn't.
There are many kinds of 'bad' finished products out there, and you can usually tell what's a "good idea misfired" and "soullessly pushed through for a buck with the predictable results". This really feels like the latter.

I wasn't asking for anything that would infringe on a non-disclosure agreement. I never even considered the option of asking you to give away confidential information. I was asking for some kind of public word from the dev team that can be viewed PUBLICALLY that I might have missed when I was trying to find information about this game. An interview, an article, something.

I am aware that Lunar DS's features have worked better in other games. I don't see that as a factor. The fact that many of the things featured in this game are pretty common actually works towards making me more firmly believe they just didn't care.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Fri May 15, 2015 12:25 pm

There seems to be a whole lot of unrest about a game that never happened. :P

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Kizyr » Wed May 20, 2015 12:27 pm

Leo wrote:There seems to be a whole lot of unrest about a game that never happened. :P

Which sums up my thoughts about *many* prequels.

Though MSL is technically a prequel. That had a lot of great elements dragged down by just one bad element, though. DS, on the other hand, had many other elements combined poorly (gameplay decisions, mentioned earlier), and never progressed the one thing that could've redeemed it (story) past a very basic structure.

That's why even though I like the idea that it could merit a good remake (vastly upgrade the story, change the engine/platform to get away from all those bad gameplay mechanics), I'm not too optimistic because of the amount of rework it'd require. The biggest thing really is the story: you'd effectively be starting at scratch, since the existing story is so bare-bones, that at that point you may as well just create an original game. KF
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Wed May 20, 2015 6:51 pm

Well I'm also not keen on the Silver Star Harmony intro either.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Imperial Knight » Mon May 25, 2015 3:06 am

Alunissage wrote:The main thing I wonder about it is if they had anyone at all that had experience with battle mechanic design. Dungeon design was pretty OK and the two battle modes could've worked, but I can't imagine how the two modes AND the random targeting (the biggest WTF I have ever seen in a game) AND flying enemies being unreachable by nearly all attacks AND the equipment breaking or being stolen AND the totally unbalanced party AND the running due to microphone input AND the losing HP permanently when running AND very little magic with a fixed number of MP recovery items in the game could possibly have been overlooked as a poor combination. The card usage mitigates some of these issues, so my only guess is that they figured everyone would be using the cards all the time. But then you spend several dungeons in a row away from the mainland where a lot of the useful cards are dropped. I just dunno.


The random targeting may be the single biggest thing that turned me off from trying out the game. I remember first reading an interview where someone connected to the game said that "you don't have to choose which enemy to attack" and at that time I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I had just played Riviera, which has a system where you don't choose the enemy to attack that works really well. But in that game it isn't completely random, when you have a character use a certain weapon it will operate based on certain rules (it could be random, or it could always attack the nearest enemy, or it could attack all enemies in the back row, etc.) and so you just need to bring the right weapons into battle to give yourself options. Once I heard that DS actually just chose the target completely at random, my interest in the game dropped significantly. To this day I've still never played it. I'm not completely unwilling to give it a try, but in all honesty I don't have much time for playing games so I really tend to prioritize games that I'm really going to enjoy.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Mon May 25, 2015 4:57 pm

Imperial Knight wrote:
Alunissage wrote:The main thing I wonder about it is if they had anyone at all that had experience with battle mechanic design. Dungeon design was pretty OK and the two battle modes could've worked, but I can't imagine how the two modes AND the random targeting (the biggest WTF I have ever seen in a game) AND flying enemies being unreachable by nearly all attacks AND the equipment breaking or being stolen AND the totally unbalanced party AND the running due to microphone input AND the losing HP permanently when running AND very little magic with a fixed number of MP recovery items in the game could possibly have been overlooked as a poor combination. The card usage mitigates some of these issues, so my only guess is that they figured everyone would be using the cards all the time. But then you spend several dungeons in a row away from the mainland where a lot of the useful cards are dropped. I just dunno.


The random targeting may be the single biggest thing that turned me off from trying out the game. I remember first reading an interview where someone connected to the game said that "you don't have to choose which enemy to attack" and at that time I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. I had just played Riviera, which has a system where you don't choose the enemy to attack that works really well. But in that game it isn't completely random, when you have a character use a certain weapon it will operate based on certain rules (it could be random, or it could always attack the nearest enemy, or it could attack all enemies in the back row, etc.) and so you just need to bring the right weapons into battle to give yourself options. Once I heard that DS actually just chose the target completely at random, my interest in the game dropped significantly. To this day I've still never played it. I'm not completely unwilling to give it a try, but in all honesty I don't have much time for playing games so I really tend to prioritize games that I'm really going to enjoy.


You could save yourself some time and pain and just hit yourself in the nuts.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Thu May 28, 2015 6:39 am

Hey, some of us don't have...never mind. Anyway, would you mind trimming down the quotes when you're quoting rather than just bolding what you're replying to?

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Thu May 28, 2015 4:00 pm

Alunissage wrote:Hey, some of us don't have...never mind. Anyway, would you mind trimming down the quotes when you're quoting rather than just bolding what you're replying to?


There are options. I once popped my ex on the clit with a rubber band while she wasn't paying attention. :lol:

And no, I wouldn't mind that. I'm a fan of efficiency as well.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Thu May 28, 2015 9:26 pm

And you still have nuts to hit yourself in? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't think this line of conversation is germane to the topic.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Fri May 29, 2015 12:20 am

Alunissage wrote:And you still have nuts to hit yourself in? On second thought, don't answer that. I don't think this line of conversation is germane to the topic.


It wasn't a rubber band like you're thinking of. It was that rubber band-like stuff that's in the top of socks to keep them in place.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Sonic# » Fri May 29, 2015 5:18 pm

We really don't need to know who, with what, and where you hit.

Imperial Knight wrote: I'm not completely unwilling to give it a try, but in all honesty I don't have much time for playing games so I really tend to prioritize games that I'm really going to enjoy.


One alternative: these days I would investigate it through a Let's Play. Most times I love getting my hands on a game and figuring it out from the inside, but having done so already I view actually playing the game as an exercise of discipline I'd rather spend elsewhere. Btter to watch in half-hour snippets that I'll skip around anyway.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Fri May 29, 2015 5:36 pm

Sonic# wrote:We really don't need to know who, with what, and where you hit.


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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Imperial Knight » Sat May 30, 2015 9:57 pm

Sonic# wrote:One alternative: these days I would investigate it through a Let's Play. Most times I love getting my hands on a game and figuring it out from the inside, but having done so already I view actually playing the game as an exercise of discipline I'd rather spend elsewhere. Btter to watch in half-hour snippets that I'll skip around anyway.


That's honestly not a bad idea. Truthfully I'll likely never play it since it's so far down my list and moves further down each time a new game intrigues me enough. The main reason I'm interested is to see what it contributes to Lunar lore (though I understand that's somewhat lacking in execution) and that way I wouldn't have to endure gameplay that just sounds tedious.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Sun May 31, 2015 10:54 am

IK, I believe I transcribed about 90% of the dialogue when I was playing it in English a couple of years ago. I still have a dungeon or three to go, but if at some point you'd like to read through the content I can send you my notes. Someday I'll return to them and finish them and then maybe format them into a potentially useful form for nuts like myself who just want to argue Lunar lore...


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