Finally beat it.

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Sun May 31, 2015 3:06 pm

Alunissage wrote:IK, I believe I transcribed about 90% of the dialogue when I was playing it in English a couple of years ago. I still have a dungeon or three to go, but if at some point you'd like to read through the content I can send you my notes. Someday I'll return to them and finish them and then maybe format them into a potentially useful form for nuts like myself who just want to argue Lunar lore...


I can't help but feel that I slightly influenced the way you chose to word this post. lol

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Sun May 31, 2015 8:16 pm

Er, no? I'm pretty sure I've used similar phrasing over the past decade or so.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:33 am

Sonic# wrote:One alternative: these days I would investigate it through a Let's Play. Most times I love getting my hands on a game and figuring it out from the inside, but having done so already I view actually playing the game as an exercise of discipline I'd rather spend elsewhere. Btter to watch in half-hour snippets that I'll skip around anyway.

There's a very good Let's Play on SomethingAwful, but it is text-based. It's also roughly as negative towards the game as I am.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Sonic# » Mon Jun 01, 2015 12:54 pm

I meant an audiovisual Let's Play, which I was surprised to learn exists.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... 5b9k6N2M3I
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Tue Jun 02, 2015 9:43 pm

I think I prefer the text one. A lot more opportunity for the person making it tear the game a new one.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Tue Jun 02, 2015 10:12 pm

It's not like anyone needs help ripping on this game. It's like taking a jab at religion....too easy.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Imperial Knight » Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:11 am

LunarRaptor wrote:I think I prefer the text one. A lot more opportunity for the person making it tear the game a new one.


Don't get me wrong, I occasionally enjoy scathing commentary on things that deserve it, but in this case I'd be more interested in checking out how everything fits in with the Lunar story than in reading someone slam the game, especially seeing as I've read plenty of the latter already.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:59 am

It doesn't fit in with Lunar's story, though. In fact, it commits several continuity violations that directly go against what Silver Star, Eternal Blue, and even Walking School all say. The text LP even goes to great lengths to explain how it doesn't fit with the estalbished Lunar continuity. Camel Pimp, the LPer, didn't bash it arbitrarily. I'll edit in a link to the LP.

EDIT: http://lparchive.org/Lunar-Dragon-Song/
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:44 am

Indeed, with lines like "It's almost as though there might be puzzle where you have to find out what order to press the switches in and each switch correlated to one of the Four Dragons which is a very original puzzle and has never been used in a Lunar game or any RPG before." That's pretty arbitrary bashing for someone whose primary thesis is that the game isn't Lunarish enough. :P Strange that he complains about the fantasy racism as if it had never made an appearance in Lunar games before. He seems to have other weak spots in his Lunar background knowledge too. So perhaps not the best source for actually learning the extent to which it does or does not fit in with the rest of the series.

I don't have any disagreements thus far with the meat of the criticisms (though they're expressed entirely too negatively, when the criticism can stand on its own without editorializing), but the writer should be consistent with his grievances.

...Okay, I'm being a bit snippy. But I really don't understand why someone would complain about having to read dialogue AND complain about dungeons. I mean, this is an RPG, however poorly executed. It's all going to be one or the other. If all you're going to do is complain, do yourself a favor and play something else. The world will survive without your unique insights, which are pretty damn repetitive. Although I appreciate the screenshots.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:27 pm

LunarRaptor wrote:It doesn't fit in with Lunar's story, though. In fact, it commits several continuity violations that directly go against what Silver Star, Eternal Blue, and even Walking School all say.


I started it but was entirely too bummed out by the time I finished the first "chapter". Can I get a quick summary of the inconsistencies?

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Sonic# » Wed Jun 03, 2015 4:40 pm

After reading through the first part, I think that it is better-written than several rants, overviews, and reviews I've seen in the past, especially in its use of images to illustrate what s/he's talking about. However, much of the complaining struck me as rather arbitrary for the reasons Alunissage notes. Even as I was agreeing that the elements were bad, I didn't have a clear sense of what the writer was looking for.

The screenshots are useful, especially for quick reference. However, if I want what I thought Imperial Knight wanted, they come second to video that shows how the game actually plays, preferably with music and sound effects. If I want what he states he wants now ("I'd be more interested in checking out how everything fits in with the Lunar story") neither resource is fully going to give him what he wants. At least, it won't give him a full understanding of the game faster than actually playing the game would. For that, he would need a summary that didn't editorialize so much.

Alunissage wrote:If all you're going to do is complain, do yourself a favor and play something else. The world will survive without your unique insights, which are pretty damn repetitive. Although I appreciate the screenshots.


Then there's this. Personally I think looking at bad games is less interesting than looking at good ones. I don't look at Dragon Song to imagine a train wreck, but to envision the good game that might have been. It's good works that I think about on the bus, that I gush over with friends, that I find myself time and again writing about. Bad works can be fun (MST3K), but they don't inspire me. I'd rather read a competent piece on what makes Eternal Blue a great game than a great piece on how Dragon Song sucks.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:30 pm

Alunissage wrote:...Okay, I'm being a bit snippy.

From what I can tell, you don't have any other moods concerning things you don't agree with. Of course you didn't like it. I was the one who linked it. Is it had been Leo, you'd be praising it.

Alunissage wrote:But I really don't understand why someone would complain about having to read dialogue AND complain about dungeons. I mean, this is an RPG, however poorly executed. It's all going to be one or the other. If all you're going to do is complain, do yourself a favor and play something else. The world will survive without your unique insights, which are pretty damn repetitive. Although I appreciate the screenshots.

If you were actually paying attention instead of looking for more ways of trying to prove me wrong about everything ever, you'd realize his grievence was with how the game just dumps infobombs on you without making it interesting. He's complaining about the dungeons because they're all terrible. As for the fantasy racism, he's complaining about that because it's there for no well-explained reason in this game. At least Tales of Symphonia and other games show where it comes from. Alunissage once again tries to go about being better than the rest of the world.
Also, these text LPs are for fun. Lighten up.

Also, Sonic, this is a competent piece.

As for inconsistencies, Leo, the big ones that stick out right off the top of my head are:
- The Frontier being reachable on foot.
- Althena having pink hair.
- The game acting like there can only be one Dragonmaster at a time, whereas there is mention of twin sister Dragonmasters in the originals.
- ALthena being enough of a moron to actually buy into anything Ignatius says or does.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:37 pm

The Frontier being reachable on foot is hilarious enough on its own. :lol:

Also Alun doesn't seem to particularly like either one of us so I don't know where you're getting that she'd be less critical of it had I linked it. Either way you aren't doing yourself any favors by furthering the divide between the two of you. Both of you could use a joint. And of course the text wasn't made interesting.....Ubisoft sucks. I don't think the racism needs much explanation. They have a different appearance. A lot of people in real life hate black people for that ridiculous reason. It IS cool when hatred is explained in some games if different groups hate each other for past transgressions, though.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:45 pm

Haha, you see, I have no further interest in narrowing the divide between Alunis and myself. Everything I say or do is met with derision from her, no matter what it is. Does she put her disagreement nicely or even try to work out a middle with me? No, of course not. I'm just wrong about everything ever. I'm a big stupid moron for her stomp all over. My very existence is a stain on reality to her. Oh, I won't leave this site, though. I'd never give her the satisfaction.

The racism does need explaining when the two sides are pretty much at peace in previous Lunar games.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Sonic# » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:17 pm

Admin business:
LunarRaptor wrote:From what I can tell, you don't have any other moods concerning things you don't agree with. Of course you didn't like it. I was the one who linked it. Is it had been Leo, you'd be praising it.


LunarRaptor, that's an attack. Between that and the derailing of discussion to air out a personal grievance, this is a warning. Let's keep it on-topic and without the enmity.

LunarRaptor wrote:Also, Sonic, this is a competent piece.


I agree it's competent. I also mentioned a couple of issues I saw and explained why I'm not interested in it. If someone wrote an essay of similar quality (decent writing, some editorializing, good points with some inconsistency) approaching what works really well in other Lunar games, I would read it straight through. I find the same approach applied to a bad game exhaustive and exhausting.

Leo wrote:The Frontier being reachable on foot is hilarious enough on its own. :lol:


That raises interesting questions. Would the Frontier have been more easily reached before the Vile Tribe was banished there? We know Lunar's geography changes over time, if only because the map changes in each game. Could the borders of the civilized world also change? Or given the seeming growth of the world in Lunar: Eternal Blue, could the reach of Althena's power grow over time, such that earlier in Lunar's history her power covered a smaller area? I don't know that these questions are answerable (except to point out how they're wrong), but they're fun little implications of what's set up.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 9:48 pm

The problem with that theory is that the Vile Tribe is already banished there before the start of this game. Even if the world of Lunar changes to some degree between Silver Star and Eternal Blue, I can't see this as anything but a contradiction on L:DS's part.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Leo » Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:56 pm

LunarRaptor wrote:Haha, you see, I have no further interest in narrowing the divide between Alunis and myself. Everything I say or do is met with derision from her, no matter what it is. Does she put her disagreement nicely or even try to work out a middle with me? No, of course not. I'm just wrong about everything ever. I'm a big stupid moron for her stomp all over. My very existence is a stain on reality to her. Oh, I won't leave this site, though. I'd never give her the satisfaction.

The racism does need explaining when the two sides are pretty much at peace in previous Lunar games.


You may find it easier to just disregard her posts then. Why reply to her if you feel this way?

Lunar is a prequel. In either Saith or Meribia in the first Lunar, an NPC mentions that things weren't always good between humans and beastmen. I don't remember if that was in the Sega CD version or not.

LunarRaptor wrote:The problem with that theory is that the Vile Tribe is already banished there before the start of this game. Even if the world of Lunar changes to some degree between Silver Star and Eternal Blue, I can't see this as anything but a contradiction on L:DS's part.


I agree. I'm definitely not going to jump through hoops and try to make this horrible game somehow fit with the others. It reminds me of the people that did all they could to make Final Fantasy 8 make sense.

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby LunarRaptor » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:14 pm

Well, then, Ubi passing up on the opportunity to go over the particulars of the friction between the humans and beastmen was a wasted opportunity. If they knew enough about the universe's history to be aware of the fantastic racism, then they had to know that a large percentage of the fanbase would be curious about it. Heck, they could dedicated an entire game to the issue. A half-beastman like Jessica becoming Dragonmaster in an attempt to unite the races could have been an interesting story. I came up with that just off the top of my head and that's still better than what we ended up with.
Unfortunately, it's only touched on enough to show that it is there in DS. In fact, it matters so little that you could easily write it right out of the game. I think the grand total milage that comes of it is Jian turning out to be an awesome fighter and suddenly "hey, humans are okay". What.

I'm a bit fuzzy concerning Final Fantasy 8, but I do recall the time travel/time compression thing being a headache.
Another thing that muddies the issue concerning the Vile Tribe features in DS: I think DS is set in a period before the Vile Tribe was even supposed to have been banished, meaning that there's been more than one Vile Tribe or somebody done goofed with the dates. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.
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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:26 pm

Althena being pink-haired is a problem in the Japanese game, but not the NA/EU one. See, one of the two* improvements Ubisoft made is to make her hair blue in the pic of her and the four dragons that's shown at the very beginning of the game. The Japanese version had her pink-haired even then, which not only was a giant massive spoiler for anyone who somehow didn't think of it (I suppose there might be one or two...) but is a continuity problem because Althena is shown in the same outfit (and hair) in EBC's flashback's and SSSC's -- so it'd be a bit weird if she dyed her hair just for the occasion of terraforming Lunar and then reverted.

However, her having pink hair in-game makes sense to me. If you look at her in-game design (there's a screenshot in part 16 of the LP, though it's strangely pixellated) you'll see that her outfit is a bit of a hybrid between her usual design and Lucia's outfit, with some nods to what Althena's priests wear. I think the intended implication is that she wasn't all the way restored to being Althena, despite her dialogue. It's a magnitude more subtle than anything else about the game, but there it is. I know I posted about this here some years ago; maybe I should find that thread.

N.b., the LP (which I stayed up all night reading) was in fact very useful for me as an aide-memoire when it wasn't editorializing. There was also a useful point about the resemblance between the designs of these four dragons (which are obviously not the same as Quark's set or Ruby's, so there's no particular reason to expect them to be identical) and the Four Symbols of Chinese mythology. I would like to presume that Kubooka did that, but I really dunno. Someone cared about detail, certainly. Anyway, I am glad to know about the LP and on balance I appreciate it being brought to my attention -- but I would disagree that it's the best way to learn about the game content in the context of this thread. After all, if it makes people too sad or irritated to continue reading, it's not succeeding in informing them, right? :P

* The other improvement Ubisoft put in was to hold the shoulder buttons to speed up animations. Which means that, yes, the Japanese game's battles are even slower. Imagine what it was like to play the import when it first came out, not being able to read the language, with the horrible battles (Artificial Stupidity, I called it, and the noise of the public transport I played it on triggered the Run command about every third battle), equipment being broken or stolen, and not using the cards until the last dungeon. That's what MY first experience with this game was, and it took something like 77 hours. People playing the English version, especially on emulator and using FAQs, have no idea how little they have to complain about the gameplay compared to that. (On the other hand, I could pretty much ignore the story, which I knew in its bare bones the same way Jenner did, and there were no name inconsistencies, since that was an artifact of localization... albeit one largely caused by a poor programming choice in having more than one file of names.)

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Re: Finally beat it.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Jun 03, 2015 11:35 pm

LunarRaptor wrote:Well, then, Ubi passing up on the opportunity to go over the particulars of the friction between the humans and beastmen was a wasted opportunity. If they knew enough about the universe's history to be aware of the fantastic racism, then they had to know that a large percentage of the fanbase would be curious about it. Heck, they could dedicated an entire game to the issue. A half-beastman like Jessica becoming Dragonmaster in an attempt to unite the races could have been an interesting story. I came up with that just off the top of my head and that's still better than what we ended up with.
Unfortunately, it's only touched on enough to show that it is there in DS. In fact, it matters so little that you could easily write it right out of the game. I think the grand total milage that comes of it is Jian turning out to be an awesome fighter and suddenly "hey, humans are okay". What.

I'm a bit fuzzy concerning Final Fantasy 8, but I do recall the time travel/time compression thing being a headache.
Another thing that muddies the issue concerning the Vile Tribe features in DS: I think DS is set in a period before the Vile Tribe was even supposed to have been banished, meaning that there's been more than one Vile Tribe or somebody done goofed with the dates. Or maybe I'm remembering wrong.

Now, this is exactly what I've wanted to see from you. If you posted more like this I'd have no problems with you. And, incidentally, I totally agree with your first paragraph -- a female beastman Dragonmaster is something I'd very much like to see. (I wonder if Alicia and Laticia could be worked into that... they're called twins, but what if they were fraternal twins who took after different parents...hm.)

I think we did try to rationalize the Vile Tribe banishment at some point here, but I forget how much was speculation and how much was backed up by in-game text. I vaguely recall having the idea that the Vile Tribe in this game voluntarily put themselves in the Frontier to be able to experiment with "black magic" away from the watchful eyes of the rest of the world, and that that eventually may have led to their official expulsion. Will have to research this.


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